How do I approach this lie?

[dufferman]

I played a few weeks back at South Buckinghamshire Golf course, and had this lie on the 2nd hole par 3.

After teeing off, my ball was partially plugged on just over the lip of the front bunker to the green. It was plugged in the sand that had come out from the bunker from numerous people playing it and not clearing the sand away, so there was quite a build up. It is fair to say that, had the sand not had been there, my ball would have likely rolled onto the green.

2 of my playing partners told me I could not move the ball. 1 said I could. We weren't in competition, but I decided to play the ball as is to stop any arguments or disagreements.

I played the ball well but still left myself a good 6 foot putt.

So, could I have moved the ball?

• The ball was plugged, but not on a wet green or fairway, but in the sand
• The ball was not in the bunker
• The area I landed in wasn't marked as under repair

I'm miffed!
Help!

 

[Octagon]

I wouldn't think you would be allowed to move the ball. I think relief can only be taken if the ball lies in it's own pitchmark in a closely mown area or if abnormal ground condition interferes with the stance or area of intended swing. Abnormal ground being casual water, GUR, hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, reptile or bird.

 

[brendy]

As far as I understood, plugged balls are part of the game unless there is a sign up stating that preferred lies were in play, be it fairways only or through the green.

 

[Octagon]

Embedded ball on any closely mown area will always get relief. Rule 25-2

 

[woody69]

Why do you think you could move the ball?

 

[dufferman]

Why do you think you could move the ball?

Now - I'm no golf expert - let me make that clear before answering your question!!

2 reasons - firstly, the sand there wasn't really supposed to be there, and my thoughts were: If my ball had landed in a conker shell or maybe it landed balanced on a fallen twig / branch, I thought you could move it, so the same would apply to the sand that isn't supposed to be there.

2nd reason, I was also aware that there was some kind of 'remove the ball if it is in it's own pitchmark' ruling, but not sure if my ball would have been included in that.

Interesting about Rule 25-2. Does that include if the ball is embedded in something that isn't technically the closely mown area (e.g. the sand) that is on top of the closely mown area?

 

[Octagon]

First point you make about things which aren't meant to be there is wrong I'm afraid. You have to play it as it lies in that situation. The second point regarding it's own pitchmark, I think part of the ball has to be below the surface of the ground to be deemed embedded in it's own pitchmark.

 

[rosecott]

Interesting about Rule 25-2. Does that include if the ball is embedded in something that isn't technically the closely mown area (e.g. the sand) that is on top of the closely mown area?

When permission to take relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green would be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended: “Through the green, a ball that is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

Exceptions:
1. A player may not take relief under this Local Rule if the ball is embedded in sand in an area that is not closely mown.

Generally speaking, the area around and on top of a bunker is not close mown.

 

[rosecott]

If my ball had landed in a conker shell or maybe it landed balanced on a fallen twig / branch, I thought you could move it

You would be penalised if the ball moved.

 

[duncan mackie]

this is an excellent question as it covers many aspects of the rules relating to the matter of an 'embedded ball'.

however, because of this it's also important to take care when considering the relevant rules.

firstly, we need to resolve the parameters in play ie
1. is the underlying area 'closely mown'?
2. is there a local rule in place that might apply if the area wasn't closely mown? In this case we will assume that if there is, it's the one quoted above by rosecott which is the specimen rule for poor course conditions.

if either of the above apply we then need to consider the question of whether the ball is embedded in it's own pitchmark as defined in 25-2 and the LR, which both require - "A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground... " and the potentially relevant part of this (and the exception quoted above) is 'in the ground'.

25-2/0.5 tells us "For a ball to be considered embedded, it must be in its own pitch-mark with part of the ball below the level of the ground."

putting this all together, for relief to apply here, the area must be closely mown or a LR permitting relief TTG in place and the ball must be embedded below the level of the surrounding ground and not just in the sand sitting on the surface. as long as the bottom of the ball is below the ground level the ball doesn't need to actually be in contact with the ground to be considered embedded.

 

[stevie_r]

If the ball was plugged in sand, there as a result of other players splashing out of the bunker, what had they been using to get out? a shovel?

Or was the ball just sat on a layer of sand?

 

[dufferman]

If the ball was plugged in sand, there as a result of other players splashing out of the bunker, what had they been using to get out? a shovel?

Or was the ball just sat on a layer of sand?

The amount of sand that was there... a shovel would just about do it!

With regards to closely mown - are we talking green closely mown or fairway closely mown? It's (supposed to be) fairway length.

I guess I don't know whether the ball was in an 'actual' pitchmark since I didn't move my ball to check for fear of getting a penalty!

 

[Octagon]

As I understand it closely mown means fairway length and shorter.

 

[williamalex1]

You would be penalised if the ball moved.

beer bottle bradshaw comes to mind

 

[MashieNiblick]

firstly, the sand there wasn't really supposed to be there, and my thoughts were: If my ball had landed in a conker shell or maybe it landed balanced on a fallen twig / branch, I thought you could move it, so the same would apply to the sand that isn't supposed to be there.

I think the issue about the ball being embedded has been addressed but not sure that the above has been.

A conker shell or fallen leaf or twig would be regarded as loose impediments (provided they weren't solidly embedded, fixed, growing or adhering to the ball) and may be removed in accordance with Rule 23-1 - Loose Impediments. NB it is the loose impediment that may be moved not the ball!

However, apart from on the green, sand and loose soil are not loose impediments (see Definition of Loose Impediments).

Brushing sand away from a ball in the situation described would incur a penalty under Rule 13-2 - Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play, which specifically states (amongst other things) that a player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball or the area of his intended stance or swing by removing or pressing down sand or loose soil (although there is no penalty for removing sand or loose soil on the putting green).

Interesting reference to Harry Bradshaw (at the Open at RSG in 1949). He played his ball despite it being in a broken bottle and didn't take relief as didn't want to risk being penalised when in fact he could have taken relief as it was an obstruction not a loose impediment. Not so many Rules Officials around in those days I guess (not to mention health and safety bods, must have sent broken glass all over the place).

 

[pbrown7582]

I think the issue about the ball being embedded has been addressed but not sure that the above has been.


However, apart from on the green, sand and loose soil are not loose impediments (see Definition of Loose Impediments).

Brushing sand away from a ball in the situation described would incur a penalty under Rule 13-2 - Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play, which specifically states (amongst other things) that a player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball or the area of his intended stance or swing by removing or pressing down sand or loose soil (although there is no penalty for removing sand or loose soil on the putting green)
.

A la Rory in dubai back in january, he brushed sand that had been hit out of a bunker onto fringe away from his line off the green and got done 2 shots. if i remember rightly he finished 1 shot back at the end of the wekend

 

[dufferman]

Interesting, thank you all for your advise! In short - if the ball was (even ever so slightly) in a pitch mark I could have taken relief, but if not then the correct thing to do was play it as I did. I shall keep a note of it for next time!! And maybe a rule book too...

 

[ScienceBoy]

I had this exact lie in my driving range's club championship 15th hole, a short par 3. I hit a 9 iron to the lip of the bunker on the front where it landed in an indentation on top of the mound the bunker was cut into, this indentation was full of loose sand, which my ball embedded in. Rather than risking a penalty I played the ball as it was to about 10 feet, missed the putt and took a 4. I think the indentation had formed from turf breaking away on the lip of the bunker.

I still think it was the right action to splash the ball out, it did not damage the lip too much. If a lot of people had the same shot I could imagine it doing some damage though.

The answer to all this would be to declare such areas as GUR before competition if known about.

 

[6inchcup]

what shocked me most on this thread the op thought he could lift his ball and move a stick/shell from under it without penalty!!!!!!

 

[dufferman]

what shocked me most on this thread the op thought he could lift his ball and move a stick/shell from under it without penalty!!!!!!

I did think that if the ball were on a loose impediment I could move it. Can you tell I don't play many competitions?