Hitting ball from dry part within water hazard into wet part

[North Mimms]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I would be grateful for advice on correct way to proceed next time this happens...

We have a small lake on one hole, and the fairway doglegs slightly around it.
The lake is marked with yellow stakes at end closest to tee, these change to red stakes as the lake becomes more lateral to fairway.
Both yellow and red sections are reachable from the tee.

It is quite common - especially when water level is low - for one's ball to end up inside the hazard, but on dry land, so perfectly playable.
Sadly this dry land is quite sloping, so frequently players duff their second shot into the water.

Please advise where one determines where to drop ball under penalty to play one's 4th shot.
(It is normally fairly easy to determine where tee shot ball crossed margin of hazard, if this is relevant)

 

[Fyldewhite]

Just the same as if they had hit it straight in and not played another stroke. The point at which it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

 

[duncan mackie]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).

 

[North Mimms]

Thanks for all.
Just digging out my Rules of golf to read alongside Duncan's reply

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks for all.
Just digging out my Rules of golf to read alongside Duncan's reply

I quoted 26-2, and it's much easier to look at the relevant decisions (26-2/1 & possibly 26-2/2) online here
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#d26-2-1
than reading the basic rules book

 

[woody69]

If a ball played from within a water hazard comes to rest in the same or another water hazard after the stroke, the player may:

(i) proceed under Rule 26-1a. If, after dropping in the hazard, the player elects not to play the dropped ball, he may:

(a) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c, adding the additional penalty of one stroke prescribed by the Rule and using as the reference point the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of this hazard before it came to rest in this hazard; or

(b) add an additional penalty of one stroke and play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5); or

(ii) proceed under Rule 26-1b, or if applicable Rule 26-1c; or

(iii)under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the last stroke from outside a water hazard was made (see Rule 20-5).

Just to confirm my understanding here.

If I hit one off the tee and it goes into this dry hazard on the sloped bank, I attempt to take my 2nd shot but chunk it into the water. I have to drop back on to the sloped bank. I'f I'm not happy with doing this (using my experience of the last shot), I can drop again outside of the hazard so I'll now be playing my 5th? What if I drop in the hazard and it rolls down the slope into the water. Am I allowed to re-drop or does that effectively force me into dropping outside the hazard ala 26-1a/b/c

 

[duncan mackie]

What if I drop in the hazard and it rolls down the slope into the water. Am I allowed to re-drop or does that effectively force me into dropping outside the hazard ala 26-1a/b/c

there's good and bad news


1. there's no concept of water here because you are already in the hazard so from a rules perspective it would have no impact, but
2. if the ball rolls forward the provisions of 20-2b still apply ie if it ends up nearer the hole than the point you last played from you would re-drop.

however, if it rolls sideways, not more than 2cl, into water then the above effectively becomes your savior (at a cost) from endlessly dropping it (also at cost) until you can actually play it!

general advice here, as with any dubious lie and potential outcome, is to consider carefully the situation you will be in if it goes wrong ie do I really want to be dropping here again?

 

[ScienceBoy]

You can drop inside a hazard?

 

[Fyldewhite]

You can drop inside a hazard?

I'm a bit confused too. Wouldn't you just take a penalty and drop outside as per my earlier post #2 ? I thought you could always drop in line with where the ball last crossed the margin even if you had had another swipe (or three)? Duncan, are you saying this is wrong or are you just adding that you could drop under stroke and distance within the hazard in the unlikely event that this was the best option?

 

[Spuddy]

I'm a bit confused too. Wouldn't you just take a penalty and drop outside as per my earlier post #2 ? I thought you could always drop in line with where the ball last crossed the margin even if you had had another swipe (or three)? Duncan, are you saying this is wrong or are you just adding that you could drop under stroke and distance within the hazard in the unlikely event that this was the best option?

You can do either. You might want to drop in the hazard as it might be favourable in terms of distance for your next shot.

 

[Colin L]

Fyldewhite. As Spuddy says. Remember that Rule 27-1a says you can play another ball from where you played your last stroke any time.

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, are you saying this is wrong or are you just adding that you could drop under stroke and distance within the hazard in the unlikely event that this was the best option?

I'm saying that if you choose to play a shot from within a water hazard, as permitted, and the result of that shot is unsatisfactory (lost, OOB, in the watery part of the water hazard or just plane unplayable wherever it goes) these are your options.

as you highlight, most of the time you will not be playing your ball from within the hazard - but the OP outlined a fairly normal situation (especially in high summer!) that occurs quite often, and I responded.

what you cannot do is, when you play into a water hazard, drop within it under 28 (or 26). But when you have played a shot from within it your options change (for obvious reasons)

 

[Foxholer]

Just to confirm my understanding here.

If I hit one off the tee and it goes into this dry hazard on the sloped bank, I attempt to take my 2nd shot but chunk it into the water. I have to drop back on to the sloped bank. I'f I'm not happy with doing this (using my experience of the last shot), I can drop again outside of the hazard so I'll now be playing my 5th? What if I drop in the hazard and it rolls down the slope into the water. Am I allowed to re-drop or does that effectively force me into dropping outside the hazard ala 26-1a/b/c

A couple of clarifications (perhaps)?

It's a mainly dry part of a WH - in which there is also water.

re the highlighted bit...You don't have to drop it back in the WH (that's one of the 3 drop options). Its only if you do the drop (and are subsequently not happy with the result) that you have the further option (under a further 1PS, so playing 5th) of still applying either of the 2 others that you had (and would be playing 4th) in the first place.

re risk of rolling into water...I think it does force you to take one of the other options, as there has been no stroke to 'recycle' the process and unplayable doesn't apply in a WH.

 

[woody69]

A couple of clarifications (perhaps)?

It's a mainly dry part of a WH - in which there is also water.

re the highlighted bit...You don't have to drop it back in the WH (that's one of the 3 drop options). Its only if you do the drop (and are subsequently not happy with the result) that you have the further option (under a further 1PS, so playing 5th) of still applying either of the 2 others that you had (and would be playing 4th) in the first place.

re risk of rolling into water...I think it does force you to take one of the other options, as there has been no stroke to 'recycle' the process and unplayable doesn't apply in a WH.

So I hit my 1st into the dry part of the hazard
With my 2nd I top it into the water so I therefore have to take drop....
Are you saying I "can" if I so wish at this point drop back into the dry part of the hazard for my 3rd and then attempt to take my 4th hoping I don't repeat the outcome of my 2nd stroke

or alternatively

I can think, actually dropping there last time caused me to go into the water so I won't drop there for my 3rd, I will follow 26-1a and go back to the spot I played my 1st and then hit back off the tee for 4?

or again alternatively

I can drop it in the dry part of the hazard, but assess it and think I don't like the look of that, therefore I will follow rule 26-1b or 26-1c drop outside the hazard (wherever that may be) and now I'm playing off 5?

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, so I'm guessing my interpretation is wrong

 

[Fyldewhite]

So I hit my 1st into the dry part of the hazard
With my 2nd I top it into the water so I therefore have to take drop....
Are you saying I "can" if I so wish at this point drop back into the dry part of the hazard for my 3rd and then attempt to take my 4th hoping I don't repeat the outcome of my 2nd stroke

or alternatively

I can think, actually dropping there last time caused me to go into the water so I won't drop there for my 3rd, I will follow 26-1a and go back to the spot I played my 1st and then hit back off the tee for 4?

or again alternatively

I can drop it in the dry part of the hazard, but assess it and think I don't like the look of that, therefore I will follow rule 26-1b or 26-1c drop outside the hazard (wherever that may be) and now I'm playing off 5?

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, so I'm guessing my interpretation is wrong

There are initially two choices (disregarding laterals for simplicity). Stroke and distance.....go back to the dry part and play the shot again under penalty...or drop outside the hazard under penalty as per normal water hazard drop. As has been pointed out this may mean sacrificing 200 yards due to the layout of the hazard etc so though usually it will be the obvious choice it isn't necessarily so.

If you choose the first option you then have the possibility of more options as if you don't like the look of it. You can then do the normal water hazard drop or go back to the tee etc....but this decision would cost another shot so I'd venture it would be very unusual and I've certainly never seen it happen.

So, if I now understand this (probably not :lol: )...... One into dry bit, one into water, one penalty drop in dry bit, decide not nice, one penalty drop outside (or where last played) and you would then be playing 5 as you say.

 

[duncan mackie]

So I hit my 1st into the dry part of the hazard
With my 2nd I top it into the water so I therefore have to take drop....
Are you saying I "can" if I so wish at this point drop back into the dry part of the hazard for my 3rd and then attempt to take my 4th hoping I don't repeat the outcome of my 2nd stroke

or alternatively

I can think, actually dropping there last time caused me to go into the water so I won't drop there for my 3rd, I will follow 26-1a and go back to the spot I played my 1st and then hit back off the tee for 4?

or again alternatively

I can drop it in the dry part of the hazard, but assess it and think I don't like the look of that, therefore I will follow rule 26-1b or 26-1c drop outside the hazard (wherever that may be) and now I'm playing off 5?

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, so I'm guessing my interpretation is wrong

regression, as this process is referred, isn't easy because the logic is more forced than structured ie it exists to resolve an otherwise impossible situation and is therefore slightly out of kilter with everything (arguably the provisional ball rules are the other awkward 'add-on' for practical purposes).

the good news is that you outline above looks spot on to me! just think of the potential benefits of being able to try again by dropping in the hazard against the seemingly harsh cost of a further shot to achieve the same outcome if you have to surrender and head back out under those options! Put another way, there's a potential price to pay for any potential benefit.

if you think that's unfair, don't consider the situation if you play you shot from within the hazard OOB! Now you loose the cheap option to head straight back out without dropping It's 4 from the same place or 5 for regression to the original options before you played.

 

[rulefan]

I believe the idea of regression from a bunker (to remove the Hamlet cigar problem) was seriously considered a few years ago but didn't reach the statute book.