Higher Loft Drivers really do add distance..

[delc]

This seems to directly contradict your previous posts.

While shaft does have an effect, it's normally Loft of head that affects Launch Angle more - along with AofA

Not really. All loft does is put backspin on the ball, so it flies higher, although face angle does have some effect. Increasing loft can put too much backspin on the ball, so that it soars high and drops steeply to earth with little forward momentum, hence less ground roll. Modern drivers are set up to launch the ball higher through dynamic loft while minimising backspin to give a decent flight and more ground roll to give maximum total distance.

 

[Simbo]

How does a higher lofted driver give less spin than a lower one, surely if everything else is pro rata then this can't happen????

 

[delc]

How does a higher lofted driver give less spin than a lower one, surely if everything else is pro rata then this can't happen????

I didn't say that! Modern drivers are weighted and and fitted with a shaft that launches the ball on a higher trajectory than the static loft would suggest (dynamic loft), but with the minimum amount of backspin for more roll and overall length.

 

[Sweep]

Interesting. The info I have is that the majority of golfers fitted at Ping are advised to go with a higher loft, which was not the case a few years ago. That leads me to conclude that the modern day head and weight distribution etc performs better with more loft, especially for those who strike down on the ball. My feeling is that the majority of amateurs strike down.
a few years ago I remember reading that Fred Funk and JB Holmes had virtually the same swing speed, yet Funk was one of the shortest hitters on tour and Holmes one of the longest. The difference was that Funk was striking down.
All adds to the importance of getting fitted IMO.

 

[MadAdey]

How does a higher lofted driver give less spin than a lower one, surely if everything else is pro rata then this can't happen????

Because it does. When I got fitted for my irons I got them to give me stats from my driver also, just out of curiosity. To cut a long story short I got advised to get an X-stiff as that would my accuracy. Got one fitted and when I picked up my irons I went back on the launch monitor with my driver. Previously I had an NV85s fitted with loft set to 7.5*, I now had A FUBUKI 70g X-stiff shaft fitted and my loft at 10*. Although my distance was more or less the same, my consistency of strike had improved, my spin rate had lowered, but at impact my dynamic loft had stayed the same. So, I think that really did hit home how important having the correct tool can be, never ever going to purchase a driver again without getting to try all the different shafts in it.

 

[harpo_72]

I heard something interesting regarding adjustable drivers and that was the spin rates increase as you dial on loft, which is understandable. Which really leads me to conclude that the guys saying they lose distance with more loft and using adjustable drivers are being given a false impression. Perhaps they should look at a higher loft in a specific head and see where they end up.

 

[Ethan]

I heard something interesting regarding adjustable drivers and that was the spin rates increase as you dial on loft, which is understandable. Which really leads me to conclude that the guys saying they lose distance with more loft and using adjustable drivers are being given a false impression. Perhaps they should look at a higher loft in a specific head and see where they end up.

Low spin is not always a good thing. A certain amount of spin is needed to get a decent flight. Without it the ball will drop like a stone. Some players need more lift and the extra spin they get is a big part of the picture.

 

[One Planer]

Low spin is not always a good thing. A certain amount of spin is needed to get a decent flight. Without it the ball will drop like a stone. Some players need more lift and the extra spin they get is a big part of the picture.

This is so true.

IMHO you only need a low spinningdriver if you generate enough spin to warrent it loweing.

I have a slow swing speed (70 MPH with a 6 iron) and dabbled for a time with a Mizuno MP630 driver. This was low launch low spin and although I could hit it straight, I struggled like hell to get the ball airbourne.

Moved to a 910D2 with a Kai'Li shaft on recommendation of a fitter and I've never been happier.

 

[MadAdey]

This is so true.

IMHO you only need a low spinningdriver if you generate enough spin to warrent it loweing.

I have a slow swing speed (70 MPH with a 6 iron) and dabbled for a time with a Mizuno MP630 driver. This was low launch low spin and although I could hit it straight, I struggled like hell to get the ball airbourne.

Moved to a 910D2 with a Kai'Li shaft on recommendation of a fitter and I've never been happier.

I think that getting a driver that is correct for you is so important as I think a lot of people out there are using the wrong shaft and loft combination. You read threads about people struggling to hit a driver, maybe there is not a lot wrong with them. It might just be that they have not got the correct one for them. I always a stiff shafted low loft driver was for me, I know find out the it is higher loft with an X-stiff shaft. But I would never had said I had a real problem off the tee, I just thought it could be more consistent and it is now.

 

[Simbo]

Because it does. When I got fitted for my irons I got them to give me stats from my driver also, just out of curiosity. To cut a long story short I got advised to get an X-stiff as that would my accuracy. Got one fitted and when I picked up my irons I went back on the launch monitor with my driver. Previously I had an NV85s fitted with loft set to 7.5*, I now had A FUBUKI 70g X-stiff shaft fitted and my loft at 10*. Although my distance was more or less the same, my consistency of strike had improved, my spin rate had lowered, but at impact my dynamic loft had stayed the same. So, I think that really did hit home how important having the correct tool can be, never ever going to purchase a driver again without getting to try all the different shafts in it.

That's not pro rata though, your comparing completely different clubs What I meant was if all you had done was change the degree of loft from 7.5 (which is extremely low by the way) to 10 degrees using same shaft/swing etc then it wouldn't have reduced your spin rate it would have increased it. people are saying how more loft is better which isn't the case, it's only a small contributing factor of a bigger weapon.
What you've basically described is a good custom fit session!

 

[mab]

I understand that launch angle is mostly controlled by the characteristics of the shaft, and backspin is controlled by loft in modern clubs.

This is not the case. Launch angle and spin are primarily driven by clubhead and loft; different shaft profiles are more of a 'fine tune'.

 

[mab]

This may be an interesting read for everyone, written by Tom Wishon.

Link if the formatting is wonky: http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittingandrepairs/7313-angle-of-attack-its-role-in-fitting


Angle of Attack: Its Role in Fitting

Over the past several years, the golf industry has said in countless magazine articles that the ideal conditions for maximising driver distance is to fit the golfer into a driver that generates a high launch angle with a low amount of backspin.
Let’s take a look at that using TrackMan launch monitor data from two of the members of the PGA Tour, Bubba Watson and Charles Howell III.

We need to first state that both players are generating the optimum launch monitor results for their respective swings.
Bearing that in mind and looking at the difference in the two players’ launch angle measurements, what is missing from this analysis that could possibly account for such a big difference in these two players’ launch angle, given the fact that both players are fully optimised for their driver performance?

Player	Ball Speed	Launch Angle	Spin Rate
Bubba Watson	186mph	13.5°	2200rpm
Charles Howell III	172mph	7.0°	2800rpm

Angle Of Attack

The answer lies in a parameter of the golf swing called the Angle of Attack. The Angle of Attack defines whether the clubhead is traveling on an upward, level or downward angle with respect to the ground when it moves through the impact area with the ball. In short, some golfers hit up on the ball, some hit down on the ball, and a few swing so that the head is traveling level with the ground when it hits the ball.

The Angle of Attack is hugely important in the determination of the optimum driver loft for all golfers because it has a big influence on the dynamic loft of the head at impact. An upward angle of attack increases the dynamic loft and increases the launch angle of the shot for any given static driver loft. A downward angle of attack decreases the dynamic loft and lowers the launch angle of the shot for any given static driver loft.

Now let’s add one more parameter to the information from the data collected from the TrackMan driver analysis of Bubba Watson and Charles Howell III as follows.

Player	Ball Speed	Launch Angle	Spin Rate	Angle of Attack
Bubba Watson	186mph	13.5°	2200rpm	+5°
Charles Howell III	172mph	7.0°	2800rpm	-5°

As you can see from the additional information, Bubba Watson swings the driver with a 5° Upward Angle of Attack, while Charles Howell III swings the driver with a -5° Downward Angle of Attack.

Each golfer’s Angle of Attack is purely a product of their swing characteristics. Quite simply, some golfers simply develop different Angles of Attack into the ball as a result of various individual swing habits and characteristics. Now let’s add one more column to the chart.

Player	Ball Speed	Launch Angle	Spin Rate	Angle of Attack	Driver Loft
Bubba Watson	186mph	13.5°	2200rpm	+5°	7.5°
Charles Howell III	172mph	7.0°	2800rpm	-5°	11.5°

Keep in mind that both players are fully optimised for their driver performance as a result of having gone through extensive testing with the golf companies with whom each has an equipment endorsement contract. Because of the difference in their Angles of Attack, Bubba Watson is fully optimised for his driver performance with a loft of 7.5° while Charles Howell III has to use a driver with a loft of 11.5° to be able to reach his optimum driver performance.

In other words, the more any golfer delivers the driver head to impact on a downward angle of attack, the more loft they have to use on the driver to be able to be fully optimised for distance performance. Conversely, the more the golfer brings the head to impact on an upward angle of attack, the lower loft they can use on the driver head to reach their point of distance optimisation.
What is interesting to note is the fact that the higher the loft, the more backspin is generated. Golfers with a downward angle of attack are always going to have to use a higher loft to reach their point of being optimised for distance. Higher loft always generates more backspin, so golfers with a downward angle of attack are always going to generate more backspin than golfers with an upward angle of attack.

For players with a very high ball speed such as professional tour players, more spin equates to a slight loss of distance. At ball speeds in excess of 155mph, the greater the spin, the greater the friction between the ball and the air through which the ball is flying. The more friction generated between the ball and the air, the sooner the ball’s velocity decays and the sooner the ball falls back to the ground.


Downward Angle Of Attack

A golfer with a downward angle of attack is always going to be at a disadvantage in overall driver performance to the golfer with an upward angle of attack. The more the golfer swings with a downward angle of attack, the more loft they will need to play on their driver to offset the effect of the downward angle of attack on the dynamic loft and resulting launch angle. The higher the driver loft to achieve the optimum launch angle, the more backspin is generated.

To give you an idea how much of a problem the downward angle of attack can be, let’s go back to our PGA Tour player with a downward angle of attack.

Player	Ball Speed	Launch Angle	Spin Rate	Angle of Attack	Driver Loft	Carry Distance
Charles Howell III	172mph	7.0°	2800rpm	-5°	11.5°	278yds
Charles Howell III	174mph	12.8°	2100rpm	+5°	8.0°	306yds

From the information, you can see that if Charles Howell III were able to somehow change his swing to be able to deliver the driver to impact with a 5° Upward Angle of Attack, he would gain a incredible amount of carry distance. However, the question certainly would be, if CH III were to embark on such a major swing change, would he still be able to retain the swing consistency necessary to take advantage of the potential for more distance.

From this we can learn a few points to keep in mind with respect to Driver performance and fitting:

• Optimum launch conditions for maximum distance are primarily dependent on clubhead speed and the angle of attack
• If the clubhead speed and angle of attack of the golfer is not known, it is not possible to tell from ball launch conditions if the golfer is maximising his/her potential for distance or not.

With the assistance of TrackMan, we can offer the following chart which reveals the most optimum launch parameters for maximum CARRY DISTANCE for a number of different clubhead speeds (swing speed) and different angles of attack

Keep in mind that when fairways are firm and very dry, it is always best to reduce the loft/dynamic loft/launch angle and reduce the carry distance to lower the shot trajectory and take advantage of more roll on the fairways for the greatest total distance.


Optimal Driver Launch Parameters for Maximum Carry Distance

Clubhead Speed (mph)	Angle of Attack (degrees)	Ball Speed (mph)	Launch Angle (degrees)	Spin at Launch (rpm)	Carry Distance (yards)	Dynamic Loft at Impact (degrees)	Probable Driver Loft
75	-5° Down	105	14.1	3170	145	17.1	23
75	0° Level	107	16.1	2690	156	18.6	19
75	+5° Upward	109	18.9	2310	167	21	15
90	-5° Down	129	10.6	3130	195	13.1	19.5
90	0° Level	131	13.4	2700	208	15.4	15.5
90	+5° Upward	132	16.0	2210	221	17.7	11.5
105	-5° Down	153	8.0	3060	243	10.1	14.5
105	0° Level	155	10.7	2520	259	12.3	12
105	+5° Upward	156	13.8	2070	274	15.2	10
120	-5° Down	177	5.7	2880	291	7.4	12
120	0° Level	178	9.0	2430	309	10.4	10
120	+5° Upward	179	12.1	1910	326	13.2	8

 

[Fish]

Enjoyed that read, especially as I have added a 9 degree driver to my bag since Xmas, good link also, now bookmarked :thup:

 

[HawkeyeMS]

...
Keep in mind that when fairways are firm and very dry, it is always best to reduce the loft/dynamic loft/launch angle and reduce the carry distance to lower the shot trajectory and take advantage of more roll on the fairways for the greatest total distance.
...

This is the exact principle my fitter at Titleist worked on. I don't have a high SS so take advantage of run

 

[the smiling assassin]

Interesting read. My stats from a recent fitting are roughly as follows and appear to marry quite well to the table,

Club speed: 108mph
Angle of attack: -9* down
Ball speed: 156mph
Launch angle: 7.9*
Spin rate: 3200rpm
Carry: 247yds
Driver loft: 12*

I haven't tried to do any tinkering with the club settings (10.5* driver, adjustable between 9.75*-12*) as I don't have the time to practice much and work on improving my AoA. The new driver has made a massive difference to my length and accuracy off the tee compared to my old 9* Ping which I used to sling with a good 30 yard 'power fade'.

 

[Wildrover]

It's quite simple really, the modern ball is designed to be launched high with low spin, as opposed to the old balata's which had to be launched low because they spun so much. This is why driver lofts have increased over the years from the old 6 or 7 deg wooden clubs years ago.

With that in mind, get fitted and trust the fitter, trust the numbers you can see. Higher lofts won't work for everyone but they will for some. If you get fitted and for example hit a 9.5 and 10.5 similar distances then I would always go for the 10.5 as it will be more consistent, even if it meant losing a few yards for that consistency. All the players on tour could be fitted for a driver that gave them more yardage if you reduce the spin right down and bullet it, but you then lose consistency, and you don't play golf on the range, it has to work on the course, and out on the course loft is your friend, as much loft as you can get away with.

 

[need_my_wedge]

Going on a launch monitor tomorrow to put my G15 10.5 up against a G25 10.5 and 12 to see what it says.

 

[need_my_wedge]

Well apparently they don't......... at least not in my session on the flightscope on Saturday. I tried my G15 10.5 against a G25 in 10.5, 11 & 12. The interesting thing for me was that the carry was pretty much identical on all 4 clubs, coming in between 207 and 209 yds pretty consistently. The biggest difference was the spin, which was reduced significantly with the G25 10.5, with a a lower ball flight an extra 30 yds roll out, and the dispersion, which was tightest on the G25 10.5, but my G15 was still tighter than the G25 11 and 12 options.

I appreciate that this was a flightscope, inside etc, but I have seen the extra roll watching my son's G25 pitch shorter than me but roll out 25 yds past me.....

Some other interesting points (for me) that I recall, were my swing speed, which has improved since last time by about 10.mph, and my angle of attack was consistently level.

I took the G25 10.5 out for 12 holes after, but it didn't really behave very well, perhaps because I really wanted it to be better, I was trying to hit it a little too hard. Of the two really good drives I hit with it, I matched yesterday with my own 10.5. So for the moment, I'll be sticking with what I have, and maybe experiment a little with my ball and club setup to see if I can hit it on the up and generate anything better through that. Oh, and wait until Feb when the new Callaway Big Bertha becomes available - I'm told that it really is a game changing driver

 

[Hacker Khan]

http://youtu.be/GqcaMHWYio4

Explains it very well I think.

 

[Odvan]

A very interesting thread and having read it all (not watched vids or read external links) I think it's more than apparent, like most things golf, that the correct answer is very personal to each of us.

One thing I am going to do tonight is adjust mine to 11.5*. Having no serious rounds planned for the near future () I'll drive as normal and hopefully, remember to monitor the difference!