Guy with wrong handicap- Options please

[3offTheTee]

This is one for Duncan M, Colin L or Rulefan as I am aware of bandit, protecting handicap, cheat etc.

Returned to our Club after a 10 year absence when I understand he was previously off 18. Club did not know this and I do not think he volunteered the information. He had not been playing golf in the 10 years.

He had a frozen shoulder when he submitted 3 cards and was given 28. He has played in 2/3 Comps this year and 2 medals he had nett 67/68 par 71, SSS 71 CSS 71.

Nobody on the Handicapping committee sees much of him, scored 42 points today with an 8/8 to finish. Monday he had 16 points on the last 5 holes!

The Group he plays with are up in arms as he expects a minimum of 39 points but they do not have the cojones to do anything.

Not sure whether his name would come up on an ESR and any advice would be appreciated

 

[DCB]

If he has had a new handicap allocated, then the committee will surely be monitoring his returns ......
He's only 3 or 4 strokes less than CSS, so really he's not that much of a bandit and the system should correc his handicap fairly quickly, if he plays in comps ... that might be the problem though

 

[rulefan]

Further to the above, the committee has an obligation to monitor his early competition scores and general play.
See Clause 23.5

I'm not sure exactly how many comps (medal or stableford) you say he has played in but he would seem to be in line for an ESR or General Play adjustment.

 

[3offTheTee]

Cheers RF. He has only played in 2/3 Comps all season so he could be ‘protecting his handicap’!

 

[rulefan]

Cheers RF. He has only played in 2/3 Comps all season so he could be ‘protecting his handicap’!

If he has played in fewer than 5 and his net differentials are less than 4, he wouldn't be marked for an ESR.

 

[3offTheTee]

His net differentials were 3 and 4

 

[Colin L]

He returned a net 67 off an initial handicap of 28. That brought his playing handicap down to 26. He then returned a net 68 off a handicap of 26. That brought his playing handicap down to 25. You don't mention his third score which is relevant to making a judgment on his general level of play. Is a 3 stroke reduction not enough for the group he plays with or do they want to relish a little blood as well?

Seems to me to be too much fuss over not very much, based on the common misconception that no-one should be able to join a club, get a handicap and then perform better than existing members.

A handicap of 18 held prior to 10 years of no golf would not have been significant in my reckoning, other perhaps than to monitor more closely than with someone totally new to the game.

I am just about to introduce a form for new members to fill in about any previous golfing experience and any previous handicap so that we have knowledge that will inform out review of the initial handicap recommended by the software.

In the long spell of warm dry weather with the ball travelling distances which, in my case, has made me feel 15 years younger, we have seen quite a number of silly scores. Reality will no doubt return all to soon.

 

[shortgame]

Is the guy constantly cleaning up in swindles etc or is it just those comp scores that are causing concern?

 

[duncan mackie]

I like Colin's answer. Well rounded and logical. For competition play this should suffice.

Although it may sound a little blizzard it sounds like the non competition play seems like the problem....is this a swindle arrangement with financial returns? If so, and the other players are concerned that's he's taking the money and extracting the urine in terms of managing his handicap - they have 2 choices either tell him he's not welcome to play in the group or, easier, politely suggest that he seems to have a problem playing in lots of comps so require him to return a supplemental card when playing with them.

Unless I'm missing the issue?

 

[Captainron]

Is the guy constantly cleaning up in swindles etc or is it just those comp scores that are causing concern?

In most swindles there is a handicapping section where handicaps are adjusted according to how they’ve fared. Some rules like
Can’t win on first go
0.5 reduction for more than 18 points on a 9
2 shot reduction for a win
1 shot for 2nd & 3rd
1 shot increase for last place
Etc

I know guys who are officially a 13 to play off 7 in a swindle

 

[Lazkir]

I know guys who are officially a 13 to play off 7 in a swindle

Our winter comps have similar rules as they're all non qualifiers. After winning/placing in a team for four or five weeks in a row I went from playing off 14, to playing off 8.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I like Colin's answer. Well rounded and logical. For competition play this should suffice.

Although it may sound a little blizzard it sounds like the non competition play seems like the problem....is this a swindle arrangement with financial returns? If so, and the other players are concerned that's he's taking the money and extracting the urine in terms of managing his handicap - they have 2 choices either tell him he's not welcome to play in the group or, easier, politely suggest that he seems to have a problem playing in lots of comps so require him to return a supplemental card when playing with them.

Unless I'm missing the issue?

One reason I am not a great fan of swindles/roll-ups where the pot for winning is anything more that notional. Make the money to be won worthwhile and you are asking for trouble - IMO.

In the roll-up I play in the most you would normally win will be about £14 - and for your troubles you'd be cut 1.4 shots

 

[3offTheTee]

“A handicap of 18 held prior to 10 years of no golf would not have been significant in my reckoning, other perhaps than to monitor more closely than with someone totally new to the game.”

I tend to disagree with the above comment from Colin L and of course it depend IMO of the age.

However I have today been informed it was 8 Handicap and not 18 which is significant.

Incidentally he came in today in a 4BBB Open with 45 points!

 

[rosecott]

“A handicap of 18 held prior to 10 years of no golf would not have been significant in my reckoning, other perhaps than to monitor more closely than with someone totally new to the game.”

I tend to disagree with the above comment from Colin L and of course it depend IMO of the age.

However I have today been informed it was 8 Handicap and not 18 which is significant.

Incidentally he came in today in a 4BBB Open with 45 points!

45 points in a 4BBB is run of the mill.

 

[Colin L]

“A handicap of 18 held prior to 10 years of no golf would not have been significant in my reckoning, other perhaps than to monitor more closely than with someone totally new to the game.”

I tend to disagree with the above comment from Colin L and of course it depend IMO of the age.

However I have today been informed it was 8 Handicap and not 18 which is significant.

Incidentally he came in today in a 4BBB Open with 45 points!

Sticking to the information you gave first, if the scores he returned for a new handicap indicated a 28 handicap, what handicap would you have allotted in the knowledge that he held an 18 handicap 10 years ago? And what would you allot now you know it was 8 he used to play off?

Like Rosecott, I wouldn't reckon 45 points in a four ball game was significantly high. Besides, he didn't come in with 45 points; he and his partner did. You would have to look at what the player you are concerned about contributed to the score before making any sort of judgment about him.

 

[shortgame]

In most swindles there is a handicapping section where handicaps are adjusted according to how they’ve fared. Some rules like
Can’t win on first go
0.5 reduction for more than 18 points on a 9
2 shot reduction for a win
1 shot for 2nd & 3rd
1 shot increase for last place
Etc

I know guys who are officially a 13 to play off 7 in a swindle

Totally. That's how one of the ones I play in works 👍 we too have a guy off 7 in that who's crept up to 14 CONGU (notorious handicap protector)

My question to the OP was more asking if this guy's performances in swindles were behind the complaints, as the info given initially re: competition results didn't see 'too' out of the ordinary

 

[shortgame]

45 points in a 4BBB is run of the mill.

Indeed - pretty standard

 

[3offTheTee]

45 points in a 4BBB is run of the mill.

Probably run of the mill in ideal conditions. However in heavy rain/wind it is an excellent score.

There were over 60 teams playing and they came 2nd in The Comp. Not really ‘ run of the mill’!

 

[Colin L]

Even if it is an excellent score, what are you suggesting? As I pointed out, it isn't the score of one player but of the better ball of two. At how many holes was his score the better one? He and his partner came 2nd. How do you feel about the handicaps of the two guys who came 1st?

And the most important question: is there any evidence whatsoever that the scores he put in for his initial handicap were not genuine?

 

[3offTheTee]

Even if it is an excellent score, what are you suggesting? As I pointed out, it isn't the score of one player but of the better ball of two. At how many holes was his score the better one? He and his partner came 2nd. How do you feel about the handicaps of the two guys who came 1st?

And the most important question: is there any evidence whatsoever that the scores he put in for his initial handicap were not genuine?

The handicap of the guys that came first are correct in as much that they play every week and have both had at least 10 Qualifying Comps this year.

The guy in question had only played in 2 Comps this year rather than 3.He had a frozen shoulder when he submitted his 3 cards which is relevant.

We played in a team Comp earlier this year and he asked me how far to the green which was 200 yards. OK he said 5 iron and he went through the back o& the green!

He is in the final of a singles Comp. A guy off 12 said that he was hitting his 5 iron further than the 12 handicap could hit his driver! I know this may not be relevant but they are both in their 60’s.

There is a County guy at our place who is looking at his handicap now and if anything does develop I will let you know