Greensomes wrong ball

[effayjay]

Both players drive. Both balls land in roughly the same location. The pair decide to play the ball driven by player A. Player B then mistakenly plays his own ball. I know that it’s a two stroke penalty, but who plays which ball next? I think that player B should play player A’s ball as originally intended as the stroke played at his own ball does not count, others disagree. What is the correct procedure?

 

[DickInShorts]

That sounds logical to me as in effect B has played a wrong ball.
However I’m sure one of our rules gurus will advise if it is covered by ROG.
I recall if the correct ball had been played and went OOB or was lost then the other player plays the next shot

 

[salfordlad]

Both players drive. Both balls land in roughly the same location. The pair decide to play the ball driven by player A. Player B then mistakenly plays his own ball. I know that it’s a two stroke penalty, but who plays which ball next? I think that player B should play player A’s ball as originally intended as the stroke played at his own ball does not count, others disagree. What is the correct procedure?

I don't see any penalty in greensomes, it is not a wrong ball, it is okay for the players to hit any ball. Both balls are in play until any ball is played for a second time. The point here is a ball is not taken out of play simply by choice, it is taken out of play by a ball being hit for the second time. Now player A plays a ball from where B played their second stroke.

 

[effayjay]

I don't see any penalty in greensomes, it is not a wrong ball, it is okay for the players to hit any ball. Both balls are in play until any ball is played for a second time. The point here is a ball is not taken out of play simply by choice, it is taken out of play by a ball being hit for the second time. Now player A plays a ball from where B played their second stroke.

It’s alternate shots so Player A’s drive must be hit by Player B or vice versa.

 

[Steven Rules]

The pair decide to play the ball driven by player A. Player B then mistakenly plays his own ball.

it is not a wrong ball, it is okay for the players to hit any ball. Both balls are in play until any ball is played for a second time

According to the OP, B has played a tee shot and has then played B's ball again as the side's second stroke.

Acknowledging that I have already been wrong on this forum once already this week, but my understanding of greensomes (noting that it is not a format covered by the Rules of Golf) is that both players - A and B - tee off. Then they select which ball to continue with. So for the side's second shot, either B hits A's ball or A hits B's ball (one or the other, not both), then they continue alternate shot (aka foursomes) from there until the ball is holed. Under this format, there is no scope for the side to select B's tee shot, and then for B to play B's ball as the side's second stroke as well.

In the OP scenario, and according to my understanding of greensomes, the side has played in the wrong order. B has played the second stroke whereas A should have played the second stroke after B's tee shot was 'selected'.

The point here is a ball is not taken out of play simply by choice, it is taken out of play by a ball being hit for the second time.

True but, according to the OP, the selection went beyond a mere thought process or verbal statement of intent. A second shot was actually played, albeit inadvertently with B's ball when they had intended to use A's, taking the side into 'wrong order' territory (as opposed to 'wrong ball' territory as suggested in #2).

In regular foursomes (Rule 22.3), playing in the wrong order results in the general penalty.

In regular foursomes stroke play, the side must correct the mistake before teeing off on the next hole. The right partner (i.e. A) must make a stroke from where the side made the first stroke in the wrong order (i.e. the side's second stroke). The stroke made in the wrong order and any more strokes before the mistake is corrected (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count.

 

[Swango1980]

I don't see any penalty in greensomes, it is not a wrong ball, it is okay for the players to hit any ball. Both balls are in play until any ball is played for a second time. The point here is a ball is not taken out of play simply by choice, it is taken out of play by a ball being hit for the second time. Now player A plays a ball from where B played their second stroke.

If it isn't a wrong ball, then it was hit by the wrong player

 

[salfordlad]

It’s alternate shots so Player A’s drive must be hit by Player B or vice versa.

Okay, I've heard the term greensomes used by some as meaning scramble and that was how I took it. So my post on this irregular form is incorrect. It's one of those forms where the name is different in multiple parts of the golfing world.

 

[jim8flog]

Okay, I've heard the term greensomes used by some as meaning scramble and that was how I took it. So my post on this irregular form is incorrect. It's one of those forms where the name is different in multiple parts of the golfing world.

It is in the the rule book

21.5 Other Forms of Playing Golf. Although only certain forms of play are specifically covered by Rules 3, 21, 22 and23, golf is also played in many other forms, such as scrambles and greensomes. The Rules can be adapted to govern play in these and other forms of play. See Committee Procedures, Section 9 (recommended ways to adapt the Rules for other common forms of play).

 

[salfordlad]

It is in the the rule book

21.5 Other Forms of Playing Golf. Although only certain forms of play are specifically covered by Rules 3, 21, 22 and23, golf is also played in many other forms, such as scrambles and greensomes. The Rules can be adapted to govern play in these and other forms of play. See Committee Procedures, Section 9 (recommended ways to adapt the Rules for other common forms of play).

Got it, thanks.

 

[rulie]

Got it, thanks.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot there about adaptation of the Rules for those forms of play.

 

[salfordlad]

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot there about adaptation of the Rules for those forms of play.

Agree. Committees are left to their own devices and, in my experience, commonly fail to provide clear guidance. The outcomes of such competitions is commonly driven by inconsistent rules application. Perhaps ignorance is bliss.

 

[rulie]

Agree. Committees are left to their own devices and, in my experience, commonly fail to provide clear guidance. The outcomes of such competitions is commonly driven by inconsistent rules application. Perhaps ignorance is bliss.

I would agree that, in the original question, it would be playing out of order rather than playing a wrong ball. Either ball is in play until the next stroke is made.

 

[backwoodsman]

Am in agreement that the Committee should have sorted this out beforehand.

But a thought. Would not rule 22.3 be the appropriate for them/us to apply - as it describes the exact situation? (albeit it is mentioned specifically in relation to foursomes rather than greensomes.)

 

[Steven Rules]

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot there about adaptation of the Rules for those forms of play.

Committee Procedures 9 promises us that additional resources can be found on RandA.org:

This section outlines various alternative forms of play. Detailed modifications to Rules 1–25 that are required for these formats are detailed at RandA.org.

But I have searched on RandA.org and can't find any such thing. I wonder if anybody on this forum knows where on RandA.org to look?

 

[Steven Rules]

Am in agreement that the Committee should have sorted this out beforehand.

But a thought. Would not rule 22.3 be the appropriate for them/us to apply - as it describes the exact situation? (albeit it is mentioned specifically in relation to foursomes rather than greensomes.)

Yes. That's a logical thought. See post #5.

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes. That's a logical thought. See post #5.

Doh... Methinks I should read posts more clearly.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Player B's ball has been decided to be picked-up/discontinued-with.

What then happens is Player B hits his ball away. Is this any different from him kicking it away, throwing it away or picking it up?
He could be regarded as having played a practice stroke on the course, perhaps.

Players could continue with Player B playing second shot with Player A's ball, as intended, and seek guidance after the round, before submitting card.
This is not a scenario I have witnessed in real life.

One that I have seen more than once in greensomes...

Both players have hit the green on a par 3.
Player A's ball is, 10ft say, from the pin and so Player B's ball near the edge of the green would be discontinued - one would think.
As Player A walks past Player B's ball he nonchalantly taps it with his putter across the green towards Player B.

Should play should continue with that ball - Player B playing the third stroke on the hole?
Player A's ball is no longer in play after he played that nonchalant stroke with his putter?

 

[salfordlad]

Player B's ball has been decided to be picked-up/discontinued-with.

What then happens is Player B hits his ball away. Is this any different from him kicking it away, throwing it away or picking it up?
He could be regarded as having played a practice stroke on the course, perhaps.

Players could continue with Player B playing second shot with Player A's ball, as intended, and seek guidance after the round, before submitting card.
This is not a scenario I have witnessed in real life.

One that I have seen more than once in greensomes...

Both players have hit the green on a par 3.
Player A's ball is, 10ft say, from the pin and so Player B's ball near the edge of the green would be discontinued - one would think.
As Player A walks past Player B's ball he nonchalantly taps it with his putter across the green towards Player B.

Should play should continue with that ball - Player B playing the third stroke on the hole?
Player A's ball is no longer in play after he played that nonchalant stroke with his putter?

On your latter question, there is an RandA quiz question that affirms tapping someone's ball back to them as a courtesy is not a stroke and not a practice stroke.

 

[woofers]

On your latter question, there is an RandA quiz question that affirms tapping someone's ball back to them as a courtesy is not a stroke and not a practice stroke.

Rule 5.5a

 

[Voyager EMH]

On your latter question, there is an RandA quiz question that affirms tapping someone's ball back to them as a courtesy is not a stroke and not a practice stroke.

But at the moment he hits it, it is his own ball. The other ball, that he hit from the tee, is his partner's ball.

Once the two tee shots have been struck and come to rest, each player's ball to be played for the next shot is the one his partner hit from the tee.
So the player is hitting his own ball towards his partner not someone else's ball.