Greensomes rules query

[Colin L]

And there are no rules laid down by the R&A for greensomes and if you ask them for a ruling they wouldn't give you one so basically my point is the committee could come down on any ruling they wish to apply.

While I agree that your won't get a greensomes ruling from the R&A, I don't agree that a committee could, for the situation described, come up with any other ruling than the one I suggested above. As soon as you have selected one of the drives, that is the ball in play in a foursomes format - a recognised format to which all the rules apply.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I'm sure there is a rule infringement, but I find myself asking whether it might be the most daft rule in golf. Why does it really matter which ball is hit as long as it was from the right place?

 

[Old Skier]

So any club still using 3/4's in Opens or any competition can be challenged and asked why and even reported as they are not conforming to Congu's directive?

We had one club in Devon threatened with de affiliated for exactly that.

 

[Fish]

I'm sure there is a rule infringement, but I find myself asking whether it might be the most daft rule in golf. Why does it really matter which ball is hit as long as it was from the right place?

I said this at the time, it would never have happened if we didn't have placing still on the fairways as you'd just rock up and hit the ball chosen, but being allowed to pick up the ball to clean it and then putting down a different ball in exactly the same spot by mistake, what advantage has been made, nothing!

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I said this at the time, it would never have happened if we didn't have placing still on the fairways as you'd just rock up and hit the ball chosen, but being allowed to pick up the ball to clean it and then putting down a different ball in exactly the same spot by mistake, what advantage has been made, nothing!

Especially if they were the same manufacturer and type.

 

[drdel]

Only really matters if the replacement ball is more suitable for the subsequent shot!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Only really matters if the replacement ball is more suitable for the subsequent shot!

The ball makes very little difference at club level to most players

 

[Fish]

The ball makes very little difference at club level to most players

Exactly, I can flush, cream, hook, slice or knob a Pro V just as easily as a Pinnacle, Dunlop or a Pink Lady 😜🏌️

 

[HampshireHog]

In foursomes you have to play the driven ball. Isn't greensomes considered a variant of foursomes, and unless specifically mentioned I.e. Both players tee off, you would expect the same rule to apply.

I recall Fowler and Michelson losing a hole in the Ryder cup hole after Fowler inadvertently substituted his ball for the 2nd shot following a drop.

 

[Colin L]

The ball makes very little difference at club level to most players

I imagine my club is typical of most in that we have a number of very good players who most certainly could benefit from substituting a ball suited to a particular shot. You can't have a rule that says the minority of good players are not permitted to substitute a ball unless permitted by a rule but it's ok for hackers like me who couldn't tell the difference.

 

[rulie]

The ball makes very little difference at club level to most players

Maybe following the Rules would/should make a difference at club level?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Maybe following the Rules would/should make a difference at club level?

I didn't say you shouldn't follow the rules, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them all.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I imagine my club is typical of most in that we have a number of very good players who most certainly could benefit from substituting a ball suited to a particular shot. You can't have a rule that says the minority of good players are not permitted to substitute a ball unless permitted by a rule but it's ok for hackers like me who couldn't tell the difference.

When did I say there should be different rules?

 

[rulie]

I didn't say you shouldn't follow the rules, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them all.

Just follow all of them; advise ruling bodies of your concerns.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Just follow all of them; advise ruling bodies of your concerns.

I thought this was a discussion forum where we could discuss things? My mistake.

 

[TomTom]

I thought this was a discussion forum where we could discuss things? My mistake.

Mine too

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Mine too

There are different ways to go about it though...

 

[Colin L]

When did I say there should be different rules?

Continuing the discussion .......

You didn't! I was just thinking that even although there is only a small proportion of players in a club who would benefit from being able to switch the type of ball being played during a hole, if that is not wanted, the rule which prevents it has to apply to everyone, including the many players who, like me, can't tell the difference. And if that occasionally catches someone out through a mistake like the OP's, then so be it.

The opposite - of allowing substitution any time - could be debated. I wouldn't be for it. These expert players have enough going for them by way of skill and talent and all these things I don't have without offering them more chances of showing me up I still dream of that wonderful wedge to a couple of yards past the pin which spins back to gimme distance. Sometimes it even goes in........

......then I wake up.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Continuing the discussion .......

You didn't! I was just thinking that even although there is only a small proportion of players in a club who would benefit from being able to switch the type of ball being played during a hole, if that is not wanted, the rule which prevents it has to apply to everyone, including the many players who, like me, can't tell the difference. And if that occasionally catches someone out through a mistake like the OP's, then so be it.

The opposite - of allowing substitution any time - could be debated. I wouldn't be for it. These expert players have enough going for them by way of skill and talent and all these things I don't have without offering them more chances of showing me up I still dream of that wonderful wedge to a couple of yards past the pin which spins back to gimme distance. Sometimes it even goes in........

......then I wake up.

I agree with you.

However, in the OPs situation, it would have been entirely possible for both players to use the same make\model of ball, Player A marks his green and Player B red. They both hit the fairway and choose Player B's red ball. Player A picks it up, cleans it, sticks it in his pocket and then accidentally puts his green ball down and hits it. They then get penalised for substituting a ball, even though it was the same make, same model and played from the correct place.

Having said all that, I do realise that the rules will inevitably lead themselves to these sort of things because they do kind of assume that all players have the same ability, they have to. I also realise that this is a corner case that will not come up too often.

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree with you.

However, in the OPs situation, it would have been entirely possible for both players to use the same make\model of ball, Player A marks his green and Player B red. They both hit the fairway and choose Player B's red ball. Player A picks it up, cleans it, sticks it in his pocket and then accidentally puts his green ball down and hits it. They then get penalised for substituting a ball, even though it was the same make, same model and played from the correct place.

Having said all that, I do realise that the rules will inevitably lead themselves to these sort of things because they do kind of assume that all players have the same ability, they have to. I also realise that this is a corner case that will not come up too often.

From my experiences it comes up quite often; the combination of habits (putting marked ball in pocket when playing preferred lies) and then either carelessness or mistakenly believing you are playing 'the other ball' when replacing one.

I've also had the related (impact of preferred lies) situation where(in a greens ones stroke play event) both pairs select drives very close to each other. Pair 1 play first from just off the fairway from a good lie in the first cut, on to the green Pair 2 are on the fairway and pick, clean and place before playing onto the green and quite close...as you have all guessed they played each others balls. Took some explaining to pair 1 that they were required to replay their shot with a 2 stroke penalty (wrong ball) whilst pair 2 just added a 2 shot penalty (wrongly substituted ball from the wrong place - no serious breach). Personally I thought there were elements of poetic justice as, had it been a match pair A lost the hole and if they hadn't played the wrong ball pair B probably wouldn't have done so!