Gravel path

Fish said:
We have 2 local rules at my new club that I've nearly become foul of before they were quickly highlighted to me.

The first is I have to take relief from all paths, I cannot choose to play the ball where it lies.

The other is only when the ball is in an actual scrape can I take relief, activity or droppings around the ball is not sufficient and also my stance has no relief either, the ball may be OK but if I'm standing on a deep scrape/burrow and loads of droppings, then tough!

These are both/all opposite to what I had available to me at my last club and has led me to now always ask when going to play other courses what the main local rules are as not everything is printed on score cards at times.
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Neither of those would get approval from R&A. They would be ditched if any 'proper tournament' used the course.

But you have to obey them.

But it always pays to check LRs for things like pathways/roads, sprinkler heads (several variants) etc. An old club had one (also non-compliant) stating 'only putters allowed to be used on Greens' - as 1 kidney shaped green has a huge mound in it and it could be tempting to chip/lob over it!
 
MetalMickie said:
and relief is available if Abnormal Ground Conditions (burrowing animal scrape) interferes with your stance.

As I say I may be wrong but that is my interpretation of those two particular Rules of Golf.
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So can a local rule supersede a rule of golf?

In essence, what this local rule is saying is, that, although the ball may be perfectly OK, I can't take any relief due to abnormal ground conditions when my stance is affected as laid out in the R&A rules because of a local rule that is in place?
 
Fish said:
So can a local rule supersede a rule of golf?

In essence, what this local rule is saying is, that, although the ball may be perfectly OK, I can't take any relief due to abnormal ground conditions when my stance is affected as laid out in the R&A rules because of a local rule that is in place?
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That's how I read that local rule as well and it's permissible. What foxholer is saying, however, is that a local rule cannot waive a rule of golf but if there is an unapproved and illegal local rule in place, as a player on that course you should abide by the local rule.
 
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R. 25-1
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule stating that interference by an abnormal ground condition with a player’s stance is deemed not to be, of itself, interference under this Rule.

The rule about relief from droppings or the path is not an approved local rule. A local rule cannot modify a rule of golf. The rules allow relief from obstructions and loose impediments. That cannot be prohibited.
 
I think the bit about droppings is all right if it is meant to just to illustrate that the hole must be interfering with lie or line of swing as opposed your feet being amongst droppings and other surface damage - which is how I was reading it. Perhaps just confusing by seeking to explain more than needs to be explained?

Any droppings that can be removed without moving the ball can be lifted.
 
I hate the way the rules are written and explained sometimes, it just gobblygook at times, do they not know that everyone who plays golf did not study English at University and may have obtained a simple CSE 'C' :smirk:

In layman's terms without reference to Rule No 1234.9 etc, are the local rules that I have mentioned allowed to be implemented as local rules or do they 'modify' the rules of golf? In other words, can I call on the rule of 'abnormal ground' if I'm standing in a multiple amount of scrapes/burrows affecting my stance but my ball is OK or do I have to abide by the local rule and in the same instance, do I have to take relief and drop behind the path although I'd prefer to play it as it lies on the path?

Takes deep breathe....
 
Fish said:
I hate the way the rules are written and explained sometimes, it just gobblygook at times, do they not know that everyone who plays golf did not study English at University and may have obtained a simple CSE 'C' :smirk:

In layman's terms without reference to Rule No 1234.9 etc, are the local rules that I have mentioned allowed to be implemented as local rules or do they 'modify' the rules of golf? In other words, can I call on the rule of 'abnormal ground' if I'm standing in a multiple amount of scrapes/burrows affecting my stance but my ball is OK or do I have to abide by the local rule and in the same instance, do I have to take relief and drop behind the path although I'd prefer to play it as it lies on the path?

Takes deep breathe....
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The problem is that many people would agree that the Local Rules should not be superseding the Rules of Golf however, there is, as usual, a grey area in that the Committee can introduce a Local Rule when compliance with the Rules could result in abnormal conditions for playing the hole.

In the circumstances you outline it is difficult to see how this could be the case but I would wish you luck in challenging it.
 
It is legitimate through a local rule to limit relief from a rabbit hole or other abnormal ground conditions by not including interference to stance. I don't think it would be reasonable however as the interference to your stance by a rabbit hole could be quite painful. It is commonly used, I think, with regard to seams of cut turf where the ball can be awkwardly sitting in the crack between two turves whereas standing on a seam is not going to affect your play. It is the norm built in to Rule 25-3 for relief from a wrong putting green.
Thus, given the local rule described by Fish, you could have one foot stuck in a fox's den and not be allowed relief if there were no interference to your lie or line of intended swing.

The local rule making relief compulsory from an obstruction is not permissible. Rule 24-2b tells us we may take relief from an immovable obstruction. That means we can take relief or equally choose to play the ball as it lies. There is no allowance made for a local rule to alter that. If nonetheless there is a local rule to that effect, the player should abide by it. It's not legal, it wouldn't be approved but it's the one in force locally.
 
Colin L said:
It is legitimate through a local rule to limit relief from a rabbit hole or other abnormal ground conditions by not including interference to stance. I don't think it would be reasonable however as the interference to your stance by a rabbit hole could be quite painful. It is commonly used, I think, with regard to seams of cut turf where the ball can be awkwardly sitting in the crack between two turves whereas standing on a seam is not going to affect your play. It is the norm built in to Rule 25-3 for relief from a wrong putting green.
Thus, given the local rule described by Fish, you could have one foot stuck in a fox's den and not be allowed relief if there were no interference to your lie or line of intended swing.

The local rule making relief compulsory from an obstruction is not permissible. Rule 24-2b tells us we may take relief from an immovable obstruction. That means we can take relief or equally choose to play the ball as it lies. There is no allowance made for a local rule to alter that. If nonetheless there is a local rule to that effect, the player should abide by it. It's not legal, it wouldn't be approved but it's the one in force locally.
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Thank you, that's much clearer, and it would seem that the local rules that are in place, which I have to abide by, are somewhat incorrect and should be challenged if necessary, but not from me, I'm keeping my head down at my new club, well at least for a while or when 1 of those rules affects me personally in a medal :smirk:
 
MetalMickie said:
The problem is that many people would agree that the Local Rules should not be superseding the Rules of Golf however, there is, as usual, a grey area in that the Committee can introduce a Local Rule when compliance with the Rules could result in abnormal conditions for playing the hole.

In the circumstances you outline it is difficult to see how this could be the case but I would wish you luck in challenging it.
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A committee may not unilaterally modify or introduce a Local Rule that is not in the Local Rules Appendix or covered by the Decisions under Rule 33-8. If they have an abnormal situation the may seek specific approval from the RA& (or USGA as appropriate) but that does not permit others to adopt it without seeking permission themselves.
 
The term “Rule’’ includes:

a. The Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in “Decisions on the Rules of Golf”;
b. Any Conditions of Competition established by the Committee under Rule 33-1 and Appendix I;
c. Any Local Rules established by the Committee under Rule 33-8a and Appendix I; and
d. The specifications on:
(i) clubs and the ball

If a club adopts a local rule that is not among the approved rules in appendix I the R&A/USGA must be consulted to obtain approval. Any other local rule is invalid, especially one that waives a Rule of Golf. (Note the capitalization indicating the main rules of golf to differentiate the other possibilities such as a condition of competition.)

What does a player do if he encounters an invalid local rule? First be sure you are right then tell the committee/managment so they will take steps to correct it. Until then, I would play a second ball under rule 3-3 or in match play get my opponent's agreement about the rule.

Others may have other solutions or debunk mine. :lol:
 
atticusfinch said:
What does a player do if he encounters an invalid local rule? First be sure you are right then tell the committee/managment so they will take steps to correct it. Until then, I would play a second ball under rule 3-3 or in match play get my opponent's agreement about the rule.
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I think if I get into a situation where I am standing amongst a multitude of burrows/holes and it is affecting my stance, I will adopt this rule and play 2 balls to finish that hole and then raise it with the points previously mentioned to the committee.
 
atticusfinch said:
What does a player do if he encounters an invalid local rule? First be sure you are right then tell the committee/managment so they will take steps to correct it. Until then, I would play a second ball under rule 3-3 or in match play get my opponent's agreement about the rule.

Others may have other solutions or debunk mine. :lol:
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Whilst proceeding under 3-3 in stroke play if uncertain isn't going to get you into too many problems, I would advise caution regarding your suggestion in matchplay! Even in stroke play you should exercise caution if the LR is specific and unambiguous - the parallels with 3-3/2 are clear.

Advising a committee that you have both decided to play to the proper rules rather than the ones they have made would be the fastest way I know to both get DQ'd (1-3).
 
duncan mackie said:
Whilst proceeding under 3-3 in stroke play if uncertain isn't going to get you into too many problems, I would advise caution regarding your suggestion in matchplay! Even in stroke play you should exercise caution if the LR is specific and unambiguous - the parallels with 3-3/2 are clear.

Advising a committee that you have both decided to play to the proper rules rather than the ones they have made would be the fastest way I know to both get DQ'd (1-3).
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That's a discussion for another day: would an agreement to waive an invalid local rule breach 1-3?
 
Colin L said:
It is legitimate through a local rule to limit relief from a rabbit hole or other abnormal ground conditions by not including interference to stance. I don't think it would be reasonable however as the interference to your stance by a rabbit hole could be quite painful. It is commonly used, I think, with regard to seams of cut turf where the ball can be awkwardly sitting in the crack between two turves whereas standing on a seam is not going to affect your play. It is the norm built in to Rule 25-3 for relief from a wrong putting green.
Thus, given the local rule described by Fish, you could have one foot stuck in a fox's den and not be allowed relief if there were no interference to your lie or line of intended swing.
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There is a specific LR about Seams of Cut Turf - that does limit it to the ball position, not stance.

So the Note in 25-1 doesn't just refer to that sort of thing.

It's not something I would be in favour of though - but wouldn't make the LR invalid.
 
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