Getting The UK Economy back on track

[funkycoldmedina]

If Callaway tried to sell drivers at £700 they would go broke, golf equipment already has a massive mark up in retail price, that's a not a good example. What you have to consider is that when products are made in the UK it creates jobs, those people pay tax and national insurance rather than having their money propped up by taxation. Take a look at the German ecconomey, almost every town and village has manufacturing companies, German people prefer to buy German made products as they are good quality and boost the ecconomy, Japan is similar so theres no reason for us to be different.

This a million times. We have a culture of rather than upskilling our workforce and companies we've become a nation that outsources. The innovation which we have in bucket loads in our R&D sector never transfers into large scale quality manufacturing jobs.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

If Callaway tried to sell drivers at £700 they would go broke, golf equipment already has a massive mark up in retail price, that's a not a good example. What you have to consider is that when products are made in the UK it creates jobs, those people pay tax and national insurance rather than having their money propped up by taxation. Take a look at the German ecconomey, almost every town and village has manufacturing companies, German people prefer to buy German made products as they are good quality and boost the ecconomy, Japan is similar so theres no reason for us to be different.

And both Germany and Japan have moved some of their production overseas to take advantage of cheaper labour.

And as for expecting the public to pay £6 for socks that they could otherwise get for £3 is sheer fantasy.

You are old enough to remember "Buy British" and the lack of effect that had.

 

[harpo_72]

TBH I dont really think there is such a thing as a truly competitive market at the top end, only in words to the end user/consumer and then it's mainly smoke and mirrors.

I think your right my experience has not shown me true competition.
I used to do the shift at a petrol station. The evening round up was to check the price of the competition within 3 miles.. no one undercut they just matched. I am afraid I was not so good, I did not change the numbers on the signs at 1 am because there was a gypsy site just round the corner who were quite opportunistic.
Also the price analysis I have seen for cars and future models is pretty laughable .. tear down is interesting as you find out the source of the components and their quality but then when cost engineering gets involved it turns into a complete comedy. I have had to put my phone on mute after some of the exchanges between supplier and cost engineering.

 

[Grant85]

The only thing that is going to get the economy going again is spending.

Public spending, private finance spending and consumer spending. The BoE will keep interest rates low and the government will do their best to encourage or back-up banks to keep the flow of lending going.

I think it could actually be a long road out of this as the government and a LOT of companies will have been ravaged financially by what has happened. Yes, they'll be able to borrow, but that doesn't allow things to happen as quickly as having your own capital up front. And of course borrowing isn't unlimited.

Also consumer confidence could be low as a lot will have lost their jobs or fear they are going. Their house will be worth less and it is natural for people to want to keep some money in the bank at times of uncertainty.

Additionally a lot of people will have realised they can live and enjoy a stripped back lifestyle. They don't need to go 2 holidays a year, have a new cars every 36 months and have a big meal out every week. They also don't need to travel into work every day, buy a £10 train ticket, £3 coffee and £6 lunch.

I'm sure a lot of people have also realised they don't mind doing some projects around the house... decorating, gardening etc. that they might have gotten someone to do later this year have now been done, and they might do the same next year if they realise they can do it and can make time for it.

I remember coming out of the credit crunch, the Queen cancelled her holiday. In reality, it was for the optics. She didn't want to be seen having leisure time when millions were unemployed or struggling on low wages. But of course, she SHOULD have been spending. Going on holiday. Giving business to whatever riding stables, shooting range and local producers she would have boosted.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If Callaway tried to sell drivers at £700 they would go broke, golf equipment already has a massive mark up in retail price, that's a not a good example. What you have to consider is that when products are made in the UK it creates jobs, those people pay tax and national insurance rather than having their money propped up by taxation. Take a look at the German ecconomey, almost every town and village has manufacturing companies, German people prefer to buy German made products as they are good quality and boost the ecconomy, Japan is similar so theres no reason for us to be different.

People prefer to buy german and Japanese products because it’s built well and is at a high standard for the price that people don’t mind paying. Taking cars for example - both countries build better products than their UK equivalent companies. We have the skill sets within the UK to provide high level items but a lot of times didn’t produce the same level of quality that represented that level of skill set


I believe it’s fantasy land stuff that believe think this will be some sort of calling to help being more manufacturing back into the UK - people will still go for the cheapest for the quality they can get and for most of everyday items that is abroad - Germany , Europe , Far East including China and Japan etc

It’s the same harking back to the golden days that we had during a recent big political issue - it’s just not going to happen , those days are long gone.

 

[SocketRocket]

And both Germany and Japan have moved some of their production overseas to take advantage of cheaper labour.

And as for expecting the public to pay £6 for socks that they could otherwise get for £3 is sheer fantasy.

You are old enough to remember "Buy British" and the lack of effect that had.

I am old enough to remember when this country manufactured a great deal and how that created meaningful jobs for people, the main reason that changed was that we didnt focus on new technology and quality standards in things like car manufacturing. When you went into an M&S store most items had a label saying 'Made in Great Britain' . I started work at British Aircraft Corporation as a Technician apprentice, it was a fantactic job that gave me the skills and education that was a cornerstone to a good career. Millions did the same in all types of industries and I dont think many would have regrets.

You fail to take up my point that when people are employed in these jobs they pay tax and NI rather than needing the state to top up their salaries, if we want to support people then do it by supporting Industry that gives them good jobs.

Of course Germany and Japan import goods, any major ecconomy will need to do that but the issue is how much do you rely on imports, IMO as little as possible would be the answer to that. It's not healthy for a major ecconomy to have most of its eggs in service industries and times like this reveal how fragile it makes us.

I made a simple analogy of a pack of socks, I posted it as a simple example of how a clothing product could be more expensive made in the UK but if you look at the social implications it's not really that more expensive. You seem to hang the whole issue on the pair of socks, think about the wider issue.

 

[SocketRocket]

People prefer to buy german and Japanese products because it’s built well and is at a high standard for the price that people don’t mind paying. Taking cars for example - both countries build better products than their UK equivalent companies. We have the skill sets within the UK to provide high level items but a lot of times didn’t produce the same level of quality that represented that level of skill set


I believe it’s fantasy land stuff that believe think this will be some sort of calling to help being more manufacturing back into the UK - people will still go for the cheapest for the quality they can get and for most of everyday items that is abroad - Germany , Europe , Far East including China and Japan etc

It’s the same harking back to the golden days that we had during a recent big political issue - it’s just not going to happen , those days are long gone.

Of course people prefer good quality, do you suggest we are incapable of building good quality?
People may well go for the cheapest prices but I'm saying that's not good for the country and their eventual livelihoods.
It's not fantasy land it's a long term policy to build up manufacturing.

 

[Grant85]

I am old enough to remember when this country manufactured a great deal and how that created meaningful jobs for people, the main reason that changed was that we didnt focus on new technology and quality standards in things .ime car manufacturing. When you went into an M&S store most items had a label saying 'Made in Great Britain' . I started work at British Aircraft Corporation as a Technician apprentice, it was a fantactic job that gave me the skills and education that was a cornerstone to a good career. Millions did the same in all types of I industries and Indont think many would have regrets.

You fail to take up my point that when people are employed in these jobs they pay tax and NI rather than needing the state to top up their salaries, if we want to support people then do it by supporting I dustry that gives them good jobs.

Of course Germany and Japan import goods, any major ecconomy will need to do that but the issue is how much do you rely on imports, IMO as little as possible would be the answer to that. It's not healthy for a major ecconomy to have most of its eggs in service industries and times like this reveal how fragile it makes us.

I made a simple analogy of a pack of socks, I posted it as a simple example of how a clothing g product could be more expensive made in the UK but if you look at the social implications it's not really that more expensive. You seem to hang the whole issue on the pair of socks, think about the wider issue.

The only thing that will bring back a british manufacturing base is wage inflation in China and India pricing their workers and goods at higher costs than our own.

Manufacturing is a great way to spread the wealth around a country. Britain has become a finance and services focussed economy in London. The rest of the country has been left behind.

The issue with finance and services is that you can do the job from an office in London, whether you are processing £1,000 of business a day or £1,000,000. With manufacturing it has to be spread around. There is no room to manufacture everything in the SE, near the ports. So naturally companies will look at the regions and work out where there are enough people and enough of an infrastructure to support a plant.

In some cases towns and cities build up around a single manufacturing plans. Phillips of Eindhoven and VW in Wolfsburg, I believe.

But of course it's not going to suddenly get better or easier for this to happen in Britain.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I am old enough to remember when this country manufactured a great deal and how that created meaningful jobs for people, the main reason that changed was that we didnt focus on new technology and quality standards in things like car manufacturing. When you went into an M&S store most items had a label saying 'Made in Great Britain' . I started work at British Aircraft Corporation as a Technician apprentice, it was a fantactic job that gave me the skills and education that was a cornerstone to a good career. Millions did the same in all types of industries and I dont think many would have regrets.

You fail to take up my point that when people are employed in these jobs they pay tax and NI rather than needing the state to top up their salaries, if we want to support people then do it by supporting I dustry that gives them good jobs.

Of course Germany and Japan import goods, any major ecconomy will need to do that but the issue is how much do you rely on imports, IMO as little as possible would be the answer to that. It's not healthy for a major ecconomy to have most of its eggs in service industries and times like this reveal how fragile it makes us.

I made a simple analogy of a pack of socks, I posted it as a simple example of how a clothing g product could be more expensive made in the UK but if you look at the social implications it's not really that more expensive. You seem to hang the whole issue on the pair of socks, think about the wider issue.

The wider issue is the price that the consumer is prepared to pay for any product, be it a new driver or a pack of socks (although apparently I am not to cite examples that don't suit your argument).

 

[SocketRocket]

The only thing that will bring back a british manufacturing base is wage inflation in China and India pricing their workers and goods at higher costs than our own.

Manufacturing is a great way to spread the wealth around a country. Britain has become a finance and services focussed economy in London. The rest of the country has been left behind.

The issue with finance and services is that you can do the job from an office in London, whether you are processing £1,000 of business a day or £1,000,000. With manufacturing it has to be spread around. There is no room to manufacture everything in the SE, near the ports. So naturally companies will look at the regions and work out where there are enough people and enough of an infrastructure to support a plant.

In some cases towns and cities build up around a single manufacturing plans. Phillips of Eindhoven and VW in Wolfsburg, I believe.

But of course it's not going to suddenly get better or easier for this to happen in Britain.

Of course it's not going to be quick or easy but IMO would eventually make a better future for more people.

 

[SocketRocket]

The wider issue is the price that the consumer is prepared to pay for any product, be it a new driver or a pack of socks (although apparently I am not to cite examples that don't suit your argument).

Please dont degrade the discussion like that. You are welcome to an opinion and so am I but we are hopefully allowed to challenge each other.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Of course people prefer good quality, do you suggest we are incapable of building good quality?
People may well go for the cheapest prices but I'm saying that's not good for the country and their eventual livelihoods.

Did you not read the bit where I said we have or possible had the skill sets to make high quality items but we didnt

Look at the “British Cars” and why did that area die , same with ships , planes etc etc

Is there any British Owned manufacturing mainstream company now ?

It went to the wall years ago - a certain Prime Minister was happy to let the industry and its towns/cities rot whilst they concentrated on becoming some financial hub.

People will always go for the cheapest prices - that’s why “Made In China” will still be everywhere, that’s why your phone , pc , telly , golf equipment, cars , etc will still come from China , Far East , Germany etc.

Even companies that do start out in the Uk - manufacture well , sell well but then up sticks and leave the UK.

The country moved on - it went down a path , whether that was the right path or not will depend on which angle you want to look at it from.

But we are not going to go back to the days of “Made In Britain”

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Ok so let’s stop imports. Now where do we stand with regards to raw materials? Aww man.

Surely we can pick and choose re imports, what, which and there is a word - tariffs-
I know the argument about tit for tat, but as things are we become an ever shrinking consumer and non producer, so in the end our ability to consume becomes less, because we have less money
We had( have) a Commonwealth which by and large is big on raw materials and short on the things those raw materials make.
Sure, the zenith has passed on that, but we can buy those materials and sell our manufactured goods at a mutual arrangement without sitting back, putting our hands in the air , and wailing , "Woe, it's China."
China can only sell cheaply where it is allowed to.

We can do non manufacture, and manufacture. Just because we were at the top in the latter once, doesn't mean we have to give up ALL manufacturing now we no longer are top.

 

[SocketRocket]

Did you not read the bit where I said we have or possible had the skill sets to make high quality items but we didnt

Look at the “British Cars” and why did that area die , same with ships , planes etc etc

Is there any British Owned manufacturing mainstream company now ?

It went to the wall years ago - a certain Prime Minister was happy to let the industry and its towns/cities rot whilst they concentrated on becoming some financial hub.

People will always go for the cheapest prices - that’s why “Made In China” will still be everywhere, that’s why your phone , pc , telly , golf equipment, cars , etc will still come from China , Far East , Germany etc.

Even companies that do start out in the Uk - manufacture well , sell well but then up sticks and leave the UK.

The country moved on - it went down a path , whether that was the right path or not will depend on which angle you want to look at it from.

But we are not going to go back to the days of “Made In Britain”

I have not suggested it's quick or easy to increase manufacturing but it can be achieved, look at Triumph Motorcycles in Leicestershire, they started up from scratch around 20 years ago and now produce top quality bikes that people want to buy, a great success story, we have also built a great number of good quality cars on licence so we can do these things it just needs investment.
I cannot accept a mindset that suggests we can't make things here.

As mentioned manufacturing spreads jobs and wealth, one of the reasons there are so many people in low skilled jobs with poor wages is that we don't have the industry to employ them.

 

[SocketRocket]

Ok so let’s stop imports. Now where do we stand with regards to raw materials? Aww man.

Did anyone suggest we stop imports now or ever. Of course they never, that's a rather extreme comment.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I have not suggested it's quick or easy to increase manufacturing but it can be achieved, look at Triumph Motorcycles in Leicestershire, they started up from scratch around 20 years ago and now produce top quality bikes that people want to buy, a great success story, we have also built a great number of good quality cars on licence so we can do these things it just needs investment.
I cannot accept a mindset that suggests we can't make things here.

Investment from who ?

And no one said “ we can’t make things here “ - it’s more that your apparent idea of the resurrection of the British Industry is all just fantasy

It stopped because it wasn’t making money, it wasn’t providing the jobs , it wasn’t commercial viable for anyone - so what has changed to make it that way ?

Unless the GB companies can provide the same level of product for the same price with the companies getting the same profit that they want then the industry is not going to come back - irrelevent if you don’t want to accept it , that’s just the way it is

Highlighting one motorbike company which i was guess is still not at the top of the sellers doesn’t change that fact.

 

[Hobbit]

Just a quick thought. As many will remember from the discussions on the Brexit thread, there isn't a car in Europe, inc the UK, that is solely made from parts manufactured in their home country.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Just a quick thought. As many will remember from the discussions on the Brexit thread, there isn't a car in Europe, inc the UK, that is solely made from parts manufactured in their home country.

Absolutely, after all BMW manufacture engines in Coleshill, Warwickshire.

And Triumph Motorcycles, who produce approximately 70,000 bikes p.a., have factories in Brazil and Thailand in addition to their base in Hinckley.

Truly it is a global economy with, for manufacturing businesses, R&D often being undertaken in higher wage economies and production of the finished goods in lower wage countries.

 

[MegaSteve]

I have not suggested it's quick or easy to increase manufacturing but it can be achieved, look at Triumph Motorcycles in Leicestershire, they started up from scratch around 20 years ago and now produce top quality bikes that people want to buy, a great success story, we have also built a great number of good quality cars on licence so we can do these things it just needs investment.
I cannot accept a mindset that suggests we can't make things here.

As mentioned manufacturing spreads jobs and wealth, one of the reasons there are so many people in low skilled jobs with poor wages is that we don't have the industry to employ them.

Sadly, I believe, a lot of the manufacturing process for Triumph occurs in Thailand...

 

[funkycoldmedina]

There was a Radio 4 programme a couple of years ago and it started with some Jeremy Clarkson footage of him experiencing a driverless car for the first time and his final comment was thank god the car was German and not British. The programme then went onto explore how many of the new technologies in that car had been researched and then developed in the UK and that this wasn't unique to this one industry. Renewables, Pharma, Construction, AI, Tech etc all have good research footings here but for some reason we then don't have the abilty to scale up into a manufacturing for the population.
We've probably fostered a culture where relatively small investment and low risk can be turned into huge profits for owners and investors. I was recently chatting to someone about a new career for myself in renewables. The UK was at the forefront Wind farm technology innovation but the Germans and Danish are the leading manufacturers. Not all manufacturing is about cheapness it's about skills and we have those.