Getting The UK Economy back on track

[Bunkermagnet]

There was a Radio 4 programme a couple of years ago and it started with some Jeremy Clarkson footage of him experiencing a driverless car for the first time and his final comment was thank god the car was German and not British. The programme then went onto explore how many of the new technologies in that car had been researched and then developed in the UK and that this wasn't unique to this one industry. Renewables, Pharma, Construction, AI, Tech etc all have good research footings here but for some reason we then don't have the abilty to scale up into a manufacturing for the population.
We've probably fostered a culture where relatively small investment and low risk can be turned into huge profits for owners and investors. I was recently chatting to someone about a new career for myself in renewables. The UK was at the forefront Wind farm technology innovation but the Germans and Danish are the leading manufacturers. Not all manufacturing is about cheapness it's about skills and we have those.

We have a history and culture of selling every good new British company to foriegn owners for the immediate money. We don't see that keeping their ownership within these shores means we have full control over where they go with production and job creation.

 

[SocketRocket]

Investment from who ?

And no one said “ we can’t make things here “ - it’s more that your apparent idea of the resurrection of the British Industry is all just fantasy

It stopped because it wasn’t making money, it wasn’t providing the jobs , it wasn’t commercial viable for anyone - so what has changed to make it that way ?

Unless the GB companies can provide the same level of product for the same price with the companies getting the same profit that they want then the industry is not going to come back - irrelevent if you don’t want to accept it , that’s just the way it is

Highlighting one motorbike company which i was guess is still not at the top of the sellers doesn’t change that fact.

I disagree. Why should we be different from other countries, in fact we do have a manufacturing industry, it's much smaller than it used to be but we have a fair number of very skilled companies especially in things like highly technical software for design and manufacturing, we also have some very skilled toolmaking companies all over the country but we can do much better.

A lot of British manufacturing stopped due to a lack of investment in modern technology and quality procedures also the way trade unions helped to stagnate confidence. Of course we cant wave a magic wand and change the way our ecconomy works but we can as a country start a policy of encouraging gradual growth and training so that we can take our world class expertise in research and development through to finished products. OK we need a mixed ecconomy so that all our eggs are not in one basket but the way we are structured at the moment leaves us extremely vunerable.

There is ongoing talk of reenergising the North, how will that be possible if we dont create industry that can thrive outside the south east, manufacturing needs space that is ideally suited outside London which is far too overpopulated. You may call these ideas 'Fantisy' and that thinking IMO is what holds us back as a Nation. What other Nations can do we can do.

 

[SocketRocket]

Absolutely, after all BMW manufacture engines in Coleshill, Warwickshire.

And Triumph Motorcycles, who produce approximately 70,000 bikes p.a., have factories in Brazil and Thailand in addition to their base in Hinckley.

Truly it is a global economy with, for manufacturing businesses, R&D often being undertaken in higher wage economies and production of the finished goods in lower wage countries.

Are the BMW engines built there used in the Mini?

Triumph did start in the UK and still produce a high number of bikes here. It's a good sign that their product is so good it has such big international demand that they have been able to open up factories in those other countries to service that demand. Just goes to show what can be achieved by using the best of production and quality techniques.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I disagree. Why should we be different from other countries, in fact we do have a manufacturing industry, it's much smaller than it used to be but we have a fair number of very skilled companies especially in things like highly technical software for design and manufacturing, we also have some very skilled toolmaking companies all over the country but we can do much better.

A lot of British manufacturing stopped due to a lack of investment in modern technology and quality procedures also the way trade unions helped to stagnate confidence. Of course we cant wave a magic wand and change the way our ecconomy works but we can as a country start a policy of encouraging gradual growth and training so that we can take our world class expertise in research and development through to finished products. OK we need a mixed ecconomy so that all our eggs are not in one basket but the way we are structured at the moment leaves us extremely vunerable.

There is ongoing talk of reenergising the North, how will that be possible if we dont create industry that can thrive outside the south east, manufacturing needs space that is ideally suited outside London which is far too overpopulated. You may call these ideas 'Fantisy' and that thinking IMO is what holds us back as a Nation. What other Nations can do we can do.

Of course you will disagree -it was one of pillars of Brexit to bring “industry etc etc “ back into the UK - and that dream will continue

But it will stay a dream

As I said - Who is going to invest when it’s already known that items can be made a lot cheaper abroad due to labour being cheaper , raw materials being cheaper , shipping easier all without impacting on the quality of the product -this then allows a company to increase the overall profits.

For a UK company to provide the same level of quality product would mean more expensive overheads which reduces profits - why do you think even the British owned companies have factories abroad ?

Sorry but you don’t seem to deal in reality more a pipe dream from years gone by , a pipe dream that disappeared with the ability of foreign companies to do the same level of quality product at a cheaper price.

You have two identical products -

One built in the UK cost £2000
One built in China costs £1500

Which product do you think people will buy.

The eggs were put into a basket by Thatcher and her gang - everyone else has just followed on from that.

Maybe I’m niave or being too simple but it’s clear as day to me that we won’t get back to any level of mass manufacturing that we used to do as a country. Regardless of quality it won’t be competitive

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The eggs were put into a basket by Thatcher and her gang - everyone else has just followed on from that.

It may suit your agenda to place the blame for the demise of British mfg. upon Thatcher (not someone I am particularly fond of) but I am afraid you are wrong in doing so.

This process dates back many years before she came to power in 1979.

Lack of investment throughout the late 50's on into the 60's, calamitous labour relations into the 1970's arising from weak management and Trades Unions with a political agenda laid those eggs.

 

[Hobbit]

It may suit your agenda to place the blame for the demise of British mfg. upon Thatcher (not someone I am particularly fond of) but I am afraid you are wrong in doing so.

This process dates back many years before she came to power in 1979.

Lack of investment throughout the late 50's on into the 60's, calamitous labour relations into the 1970's arising from weak management and Trades Unions with a political agenda laid those eggs.

Some people have rose tinted spectacles. They forget or didn't experience things like the 3 day week, brought about by yet another miner's strike - if the miners want to blame anyone, blame Arthur Scargill. A quick read about how corrupt the voting was for those strikes... anyway, that's for another thread.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It may suit your agenda to place the blame for the demise of British mfg. upon Thatcher (not someone I am particularly fond of) but I am afraid you are wrong in doing so.

This process dates back many years before she came to power in 1979.

Lack of investment throughout the late 50's on into the 60's, calamitous labour relations into the 1970's arising from weak management and Trades Unions with a political agenda laid those eggs.

No agenda and only going by things I have been told and read about

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp..../why-britain-doesnt-make-things-manufacturing

I guess the seeds may well have been down during the early years with the trees ripped apart late 70’s to 90’s

 

[Sweep]

Postpone Brexit?? Anyone?? Can I get a whoop whoop??

Tough audience.....

Isn’t it funny that the £39 Billion seemed like so much money and caused so much argument just 5 months ago?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Some people have rose tinted spectacles. They forget or didn't experience things like the 3 day week, brought about by yet another miner's strike - if the miners want to blame anyone, blame Arthur Scargill. A quick read about how corrupt the voting was for those strikes... anyway, that's for another thread.

And Red Robbo at British Leyland!

On the other hand there were Boards of Directors such as BSA who during the successful years chose to not invest in the business and instead distributed all profits to shareholders.

Industry was on its uppers well before Mrs Thatcher.

 

[SocketRocket]

Of course you will disagree -it was one of pillars of Brexit to bring “industry etc etc “ back into the UK - and that dream will continue

But it will stay a dream

As I said - Who is going to invest when it’s already known that items can be made a lot cheaper abroad due to labour being cheaper , raw materials being cheaper , shipping easier all without impacting on the quality of the product -this then allows a company to increase the overall profits.

For a UK company to provide the same level of quality product would mean more expensive overheads which reduces profits - why do you think even the British owned companies have factories abroad ?

Sorry but you don’t seem to deal in reality more a pipe dream from years gone by , a pipe dream that disappeared with the ability of foreign companies to do the same level of quality product at a cheaper price.

You have two identical products -

One built in the UK cost £2000
One built in China costs £1500

Which product do you think people will buy.

The eggs were put into a basket by Thatcher and her gang - everyone else has just followed on from that.

Maybe I’m niave or being too simple but it’s clear as day to me that we won’t get back to any level of mass manufacturing that we used to do as a country. Regardless of quality it won’t be competitive

I explained in post #149 my view on our ecconomy so see little point in reitterating it. You keep dismissing these views as 'pipe dreams' 'fantasy' and dreaming of a past that will never return.
No matter what I say about new companies or existing ones and how we have the people and entrepreneurs that are capable of matching anyone in the world you have made up your mind we are a nation incapable of change and set on a future that we are incapable of improving. If that's your view then dont complain about people having low wages and there being limited prosects for the working class, dont critise the bankers and city traders for owning so much of the national wealth. I'm not going to be the one affected by the way our economy has become structred and the desolation of so many areas of the UK. Oh no, I just see a better way and I just hope for your childrens sake we can wake up and start to build a place where they have some work and prospects.

Good to see today the Government putting some money available for new start up initiatives.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I explained in post #149 my view on our ecconomy so see little point in reitterating it. You keep dismissing these views as 'pipe dreams' 'fantasy' and dreaming of a past that will never return.
No matter what I say about new companies or existing ones and how we have the people and entrepreneurs that are capable of matching anyone in the world you have made up your mind we are a nation incapable of change and set on a future that we are incapable of improving. If that's your view then dont complain about people having low wages and there being limited prosects for the working class, dont critise the bankers and city traders for owning so much of the national wealth. I'm not going to be the one affected by the way our economy has become structred and the desolation of so many areas of the UK. Oh no, I just see a better way and I just hope for your childrens sake we can wake up and start to build a place where they have some work and prospects.

Good to see today the Government putting some money available for new start up initiatives.

But you didn’t really address any of the points I made did you -

Same product quality for

Cheaper Labour
Cheaper raw materials
Cheaper distribution

Why do even British companies take their manufacturing abroad ?

Same quality product - one cheaper than the other - which one will the public buy ?

Who is going to provide the level of investment to challenge the overseas companies ?

Are we going to reduce the living wage to allow companies to pay the same as countries overseas ?

How will these companies find a way to maximise their profit ? Increase the cost of it ?

The country has changed - it’s not going to change back whilst the world is able to be better or the same as us at half the cost , the rat race grew outside the Uk many countries developed themselves

We had have a chance of keeping a lot of the current industry whilst within the biggest trade block in the world but it won’t be long until what’s left moves to areas where it will be more financially beneficial for them.

Businesses don’t care about morals - they care about profit.

Doesn’t matter if we have the best inventors or brains or engineers - they will also go where the money.

It’s a harsh cynical world and sometimes reality hurts. But the one thing that will make everyone keep going - money and making lots of it.

There are still lots of work available in the UK and the UK can move forward it’s just not going to be as an Industrial powerhouse that some people dream off

 

[SocketRocket]

But you didn’t really address any of the points I made did you -

Same product quality for

Cheaper Labour
Cheaper raw materials
Cheaper distribution

Why do even British companies take their manufacturing abroad ?

Same quality product - one cheaper than the other - which one will the public buy ?

Who is going to provide the level of investment to challenge the overseas companies ?

Are we going to reduce the living wage to allow companies to pay the same as countries overseas ?

How will these companies find a way to maximise their profit ? Increase the cost of it ?

The country has changed - it’s not going to change back whilst the world is able to be better or the same as us at half the cost , the rat race grew outside the Uk many countries developed themselves

We had have a chance of keeping a lot of the current industry whilst within the biggest trade block in the world but it won’t be long until what’s left moves to areas where it will be more financially beneficial for them.

Businesses don’t care about morals - they care about profit.

Doesn’t matter if we have the best inventors or brains or engineers - they will also go where the money.

It’s a harsh cynical world and sometimes reality hurts. But the one thing that will make everyone keep going - money and making lots of it.

There are still lots of work available in the UK and the UK can move forward it’s just not going to be as an Industrial powerhouse that some people dream off

I had already addressed them if you care to read my posts.
I have explained previously that relying on cheap imports and then having to prop up peoples wages or unemployment with benefits is poor ecconomics. A lot of Chinese products are not good quality, much is cheap junk.

Many companies take their manufacturing abroad to take advantage of cheap and at times almost slave labour. This is a reality and I am not denying it but ultimately its not good for our country. I dont want to keep going around in circles with this, you are not going to agree with anything I post, you make that clear over and over, I am not going to agree with you on this one either.

I dont need you patronising me, telling me it's a harsh world, my experience working in Manufacturing most of my life has shown me that we are capable of much more in this country and I say this from the experience of having ran a very successful company that developed and sold its products around the World, products for manufacturing and developed in the UK.

https://www.pwc.co.uk/industries/manufacturing/insights/annual-manufacturing-report.html

 

[ColchesterFC]

Of course you will disagree -it was one of pillars of Brexit to bring “industry etc etc “ back into the UK - and that dream will continue

But it will stay a dream

As I said - Who is going to invest when it’s already known that items can be made a lot cheaper abroad due to labour being cheaper , raw materials being cheaper , shipping easier all without impacting on the quality of the product -this then allows a company to increase the overall profits.

For a UK company to provide the same level of quality product would mean more expensive overheads which reduces profits - why do you think even the British owned companies have factories abroad ?

Sorry but you don’t seem to deal in reality more a pipe dream from years gone by , a pipe dream that disappeared with the ability of foreign companies to do the same level of quality product at a cheaper price.

You have two identical products -

One built in the UK cost £2000
One built in China costs £1500

Which product do you think people will buy.

The eggs were put into a basket by Thatcher and her gang - everyone else has just followed on from that.

Maybe I’m niave or being too simple but it’s clear as day to me that we won’t get back to any level of mass manufacturing that we used to do as a country. Regardless of quality it won’t be competitive

50% tariff applied to said product imported from China and hey presto the UK made one is cheaper.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

50% tariff applied to said product imported from China and hey presto the UK made one is cheaper.

So who is going to pay for the extra wages for people to pay for more expensive items ?
if people can’t afford to pay for it due to it being more expensive the UK business isn’t going to suddenly boom

And is the country really going to put huge tariffs on imports ? Wonder what the repercussions will be on our exports ?

 

[williamalex1]

Narrow the wage gap put a ceiling on the top wage earners , multimillionaire bankers, politicians, footballers, pop stars, privileged Lords why they never get their hands dirty compared to nurses, doctors, manual workers.
WTF needs over a million pound a year, nurses, road workers pensioners manage on at least 10 times less , where's the justice,
pure communism might be an idea after all

 

[SocketRocket]

So who is going to pay for the extra wages for people to pay for more expensive items ?
if people can’t afford to pay for it due to it being more expensive the UK business isn’t going to suddenly boom

And is the country really going to put huge tariffs on imports ? Wonder what the repercussions will be on our exports ?

UK exports to China were worth £22.6 billion; imports from China were £44.7 billion, resulting in a trade deficit of -£22.1 billion.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

UK exports to China were worth £22.6 billion; imports from China were £44.7 billion, resulting in a trade deficit of -£22.1 billion.

And ? How does that answer the question ?

You thing we can narrow the gap by charging them

Will they counter and add on levys to anything we export to them - or will they go -“ nah that’s ok we of course won’t add any tarrifs” ?

Yes I can see us winning in a game of hardball with China - piece of cake.

 

[SocketRocket]

And ? How does that answer the question ?

You thing we can narrow the gap by charging them

Will they counter and add on levys to anything we export to them - or will they go -“ nah that’s ok we of course won’t add any tarrifs” ?

Yes I can see us winning in a game of hardball with China - piece of cake.

I'm just showing you who would be hardest hit by trade barriers. We have a massive trade deficit with China, it's around the same value as our total exports. Maybe we should put quotas on their imports so they match our exports.

Another thought, there should be a world trade embargo on China unless they permanently shut down wet markets.

Oh! The '?' didnt strengthen your point either.

 

[Papas1982]

I'm just showing you who would be hardest hit by trade barriers. We have a massive trade deficit with China, it's around the same value as our total exports. Maybe we should put quotas on their imports so they match our exports.

Another thought, there should be a world trade embargo on China unless they permanently shut down wet markets.

Oh! The '?' didnt strengthen your point either.

Unfortunately the deficit you demonstrate proves nothing. Form everyone who argues that China will lose money of we import less, there will be someone who can legit claim that we will overspend if we import more fro elsewhere.

 

[SocketRocket]

Unfortunately the deficit you demonstrate proves nothing. Form everyone who argues that China will lose money of we import less, there will be someone who can legit claim that we will overspend if we import more fro elsewhere.

That's not the point I was making. I was discussing how IMO the UK should start a plan of increasing manufacturing and the overall benifits this would produce. My comment on our trade deficit was to the challenge that we are not capable of doing this and regarding China we have no choice but buy from them.