Gapping session revealed problems with Nike Metals.

[DanFST]

Thought i'd pick peoples brains on here.

Went for a gapping session on GC2 this evening with a new pro and relatively new irons. And what an eye opener it was. went from 9 iron up to Driver as I already know my PW. However, it's left me and the pro slightly stumped.

My irons are regular, Dynalite 105, Covert 2.0's
My hybrid Is a Stiff, Covert tour, set to 21 degrees.
My 5 and 3 woods are regular, Covert.

I haven't had the figures sent to me yet. But my 4 iron, Hybrid set to 21 degrees, and 5 wood all go pretty much the same distance, with the 3 wood being slightly less than it should be. I assumed it was my striking, but the pro also had a go, and found exactly the same problem (albeit at a much greater distance than me!) The 4 iron was really getting out there, the hybrid was hard to find the middle of and the 5 wood just didn't carry.

He thought the clubs might be fake, but the 5 wood and hybrid were purchased new from AG. And the 3 wood was purchased from a trustworthy member on here.

So in summary, has anyone else struggled to get the appropriate numbers out Nike metals? Or any other ideas why this is happening?

 

[NWJocko]

Thought i'd pick peoples brains on here.

Went for a gapping session on GC2 this evening with a new pro and relatively new irons. And what an eye opener it was. went from 9 iron up to Driver as I already know my PW. However, it's left me and the pro slightly stumped.

My irons are regular, Dynalite 105, Covert 2.0's
My hybrid Is a Stiff, Covert tour, set to 21 degrees.
My 5 and 3 woods are regular, Covert.

I haven't had the figures sent to me yet. But my 4 iron, Hybrid set to 21 degrees, and 5 wood all go pretty much the same distance, with the 3 wood being slightly less than it should be. I assumed it was my striking, but the pro also had a go, and found exactly the same problem (albeit at a much greater distance than me!) The 4 iron was really getting out there, the hybrid was hard to find the middle of and the 5 wood just didn't carry.

He thought the clubs might be fake, but the 5 wood and hybrid were purchased new from AG. And the 3 wood was purchased from a trustworthy member on here.

So in summary, has anyone else struggled to get the appropriate numbers out Nike metals? Or any other ideas why this is happening?

Are the fairways the Covert Tour or non tour versions?

I tried the Tour ones and they are/were ultra low spin so pretty tough to get any distance out of.

 

[pendodave]

If it was just you, I would suggest that it is because you don't have sufficient swing speed or strike quality to get the most from your 3 wood and hybrid. I find at the long end of the bag I have a similar problem which is why I use a 7 wood, rather than a 5. Low spin woods would make this even more likely (as per previous reply)

However, I would be a bit embarrassed about suggesting that to a pro !

 

[the_coach]

couple of things probably worth considering.

static loft of your 4i is around 24º, if you swing to deliver at impact some kind of forward leaning shaft, hands ahead....then that dynamic loft could well be around 20/21º. shaft flex r.

static loft of a 5 wood around 24º shaft probably not a ways longer than the 4i. shaft flex r.
(so likely you're delivering somewhere around a similar dynamic loft)

static loft of the hybrid 21º so delivered dynamic loft although a few degrees lower - the stiffer flex could well be offsetting this distance wise. (you'd possibly find 21º hybrid with a reg flex would travel a ways further)

so they are maxing out for you a similar distance.

3 metal can be a troublesome club to many. so maybes a strike issue.
you ask a tour pro which club he finds most difficulty finding to stick in the bag & most would say 3 metal, that's why for many years you'll find odd & old 3 metal's in elite players bags often times, that they just re-shafted through a year, year on year. takes a lot for them to replace with new often times.

a Pro with a reasonable swing speed is going to have to hold off some, likely, on his swing motion with the clubs with a softer shaft so that could account for some of the issue around his results.

but my guess would be 5 metal. 4i for you coming in around the same loft through strike. shaft in the lower lofted hybrid accounting for why it max's out around the other 2 clubs.

 

[Fish]

couple of things probably worth considering.

static loft of your 4i is around 24º, if you swing to deliver at impact some kind of forward leaning shaft, hands ahead....then that dynamic loft could well be around 20/21º. shaft flex r.

static loft of a 5 wood around 24º shaft probably not a ways longer than the 4i. shaft flex r.
(so likely you're delivering somewhere around a similar dynamic loft)

static loft of the hybrid 21º so delivered dynamic loft although a few degrees lower - the stiffer flex could well be offsetting this distance wise. (you'd possibly find 21º hybrid with a reg flex would travel a ways further)

so they are maxing out for you a similar distance.

3 metal can be a troublesome club to many. so maybes a strike issue.
you ask a tour pro which club he finds most difficulty finding to stick in the bag & most would say 3 metal, that's why for many years you'll find odd & old 3 metal's in elite players bags often times, that they just re-shafted through a year, year on year. takes a lot for them to replace with new often times.

a Pro with a reasonable swing speed is going to have to hold off some, likely, on his swing motion with the clubs with a softer shaft so that could account for some of the issue around his results.

but my guess would be 5 metal. 4i for you coming in around the same loft through strike. shaft in the lower lofted hybrid accounting for why it max's out around the other 2 clubs.

Wouldn't the GC2 have shown all these stats up though for the Pro to have noticed, surely he would have seen the flight, loft, spin, carry along with angle of attack etc and come to some of those conclusions?

I'm dropping my clubs off to my pro today to get them all loft & lie checked, I've got a couple that are performing similar if not the same and because of knowing that in my head I'm forcing some shots when at particular distances which as we all know, doesn't work.

I bought my MP-52's second-hand and had them around 3yrs now so I'm expecting some surprising feedback.

 

[DanFST]

couple of things probably worth considering.

static loft of your 4i is around 24º, if you swing to deliver at impact some kind of forward leaning shaft, hands ahead....then that dynamic loft could well be around 20/21º. shaft flex r.

static loft of a 5 wood around 24º shaft probably not a ways longer than the 4i. shaft flex r.
(so likely you're delivering somewhere around a similar dynamic loft)

static loft of the hybrid 21º so delivered dynamic loft although a few degrees lower - the stiffer flex could well be offsetting this distance wise. (you'd possibly find 21º hybrid with a reg flex would travel a ways further)

so they are maxing out for you a similar distance.

3 metal can be a troublesome club to many. so maybes a strike issue.
you ask a tour pro which club he finds most difficulty finding to stick in the bag & most would say 3 metal, that's why for many years you'll find odd & old 3 metal's in elite players bags often times, that they just re-shafted through a year, year on year. takes a lot for them to replace with new often times.

a Pro with a reasonable swing speed is going to have to hold off some, likely, on his swing motion with the clubs with a softer shaft so that could account for some of the issue around his results.

but my guess would be 5 metal. 4i for you coming in around the same loft through strike. shaft in the lower lofted hybrid accounting for why it max's out around the other 2 clubs.

You raise some interesting points Coach. Even though the lofts are pretty much the same, surely the length of the handle/mass behind the ball should make a difference? The GC2 doesn't have the HMT attachment, but surely it should flag the dynamic loft?

These are my average carry's:

You can see how bad the problem is! Also the 3 wood should apparently be carrying quite a bit more when factoring my swing.

 

[SAPCOR1]

Remove the 4i and the 23* hybrid and replace with 19* hybrid?

 

[Fish]

Remove the 4i and the 23* hybrid and replace with 19* hybrid?

But that could potentially outstrip his 5w & 3w, and even his driver if flushed going by his decent iron carry distances!

My irons are nothing like those figures but my woods are much better, so something is not right with them!!

 

[duncan mackie]

My irons are nothing like those figures but my woods are much better, so something is not right with them!!

ditto

I'm not as convinced that there's a real issue here as the OP indicates, and am with coach on the practical aspects of the clubs and their natural use. Even more telling is the listing of the hybrid at 23 degrees!!!!! (and I'm not a huge believer in the adjustment of loft within the club to give any meaningful difference in apparent loft at impact as people just adjust it back in their hands)

From a clubbing perspective Dan should just drop the 5 wood and sort out a 19/20 h simples

 

[DanFST]

Even more telling is the listing of the hybrid at 23 degrees!!!!! (and I'm not a huge believer in the adjustment of loft within the club to give any meaningful difference in apparent loft at impact as people just adjust it back in their hands)

From a clubbing perspective Dan should just drop the 5 wood and sort out a 19/20 h simples

I forgot to mention, it's put on the board as 23, because thats what it was set at before the gapping. It was then changed to the lowest loft at 21, and re averaged so to speak. We just didn't change it on the board!

 

[garyinderry]

They are not bad carry. What was your club head speed for the driver? Any idea of your attack angle too?

 

[duncan mackie]

I forgot to mention, it's put on the board as 23, because thats what it was set at before the gapping. It was then changed to the lowest loft at 21, and re averaged so to speak. We just didn't change it on the board!

appreciate that, but at the end of the day you only have one shaft length and you aren't going to increase the club head speed by adjusting the loft. As the coach, I would expect that club to produce similar data to the 4i in the hands of a pro as well. The 5 wood is the strange one as I would expect that to outperform both by more than it did on testing - but it's also one of the more model specific performance clubs in most people bags.

you are clearly more comfortable with your irons than woods, and the stand out stat is your 4 iron which bucks the compression trend usually seen (and present in your data until that club).

personally I wouldn't be making any decisions based on that data but would be looking at real world experiences via some structured course time.

 

[Stuey01]

This looks odd to me, your irons are within a few yards of mine but your woods are way shorter. Have you got any more info, like launch angle, spin rate, AoA, etc?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Hit some other 3/5 woods. If they are longer then buy them. Simples.

 

[the_coach]

You raise some interesting points Coach. Even though the lofts are pretty much the same, surely the length of the handle/mass behind the ball should make a difference? The GC2 doesn't have the HMT attachment, but surely it should flag the dynamic loft?

These are my average carry's:

You can see how bad the problem is! Also the 3 wood should apparently be carrying quite a bit more when factoring my swing.

have had a look at the specs & build, assuming these are from the clubs in the 'sig'. also had a quick look at covert metal user reports.

vr pro blades by build not that forgiving a strike if you miss 'sweet' by a little on either the vertical or the horizontal axis. wouldn't expect the loft or lie to be a ways out from what they should be- but you can always get that checked over.

you don't say what the 'norm' flight pattern to the irons are low, mid, high, flight curvature.

if you check the gaps. from 9i you get 11 - 15 - 9 - 8 - 14 in the irons.

looking at the unevenness here would more suggest to me some contact issues at impact.

the metals both the reg & tour head coverts are both a ways smaller than average in size, the build tech head & face produced to favor a quicker SS to get optimum flight. produced to give low spin, CHS needed to produce the spin needed for optimum flight & carry. again with either model theirs not much help if you just a little ways off the sweet.

looking at reported 5 metal results around the carry you have not unusual for this club, given a Ball speed of between 120 - 123 (dependent on SF) produces figures around where you are experiencing.
3 metal similar also.

so whether good or bad news would say the issue is more around the type of clubs they are & the swing motion delivery. would take a can of foot spray, bag towel to the range & check what the average strike pattern is through the whole bag.

way forwards would be to work on the swing sequence & delivery through impact to get more optimum results or if circumstances allow look to change the 'type' of club to one that a little ways more forgiving on strike.

maybes the 4i anomaly could be down to the length & loft & lie just more suiting the delivery some, so you had some good results which in turn has freed up a little ways more positive strike pattern.

 

[groundskeeperwilly]

Not sure I can add much value here but I had a 'gapping' session lately and really really doubted the validity of the numbers I was given. A club listed as 153 carry in the session seems to regularly go 180ish carry on the course verified by lasers, gps, course markings etc etc

So I guess what I want to ask is - do those numbers reflect what you see on the course? If you had a forced carry of XXX yards would you choose the club the corresponds with the info above?

Do you find the 3W, Hybrid & 4I all close to each other on the course? How do you choose what to hit at 185/190 yards?

 

[DanFST]

They are not bad carry. What was your club head speed for the driver? Any idea of your attack angle too?

I have no idea about the driver, I only hit 2, which I hit down on and they span like mad. I was knackered and wanted to sort out the obvious gapping issues before the hour was out! Having a lesson soon on the driver and more on these woods. So will see then! I'd expect my carry to be 240 ish.

Not sure I can add much value here but I had a 'gapping' session lately and really really doubted the validity of the numbers I was given.

So I guess what I want to ask is - do those numbers reflect what you see on the course? If you had a forced carry of XXX yards would you choose the club the corresponds with the info above?

Do you find the 3W, Hybrid & 4I all close to each other on the course? How do you choose what to hit at 185/190 yards?

I didn't really know how far my clubs went, these irons are new. I would have always gone with my hybrid, but now i'm not so sure. I must say i played with these yardages on Tuesday, and all apart from 1 green, the yardages were spot on. ( I think I lazered the trees behind, that I ended up in!)

This looks odd to me, your irons are within a few yards of mine but your woods are way shorter. Have you got any more info, like launch angle, spin rate, AoA, etc?

4 iron average:

Launch angle: 13.9
Peak height: 25 yards.
Ball Speed: 124 mph
Back Spin: 3211 rpm

21 Hybrid:

Launch Angle: 15.6
Peak height: 26 yards
Ball speed: 123 mph
Back Spin: 2717 rpm

5 wood at 19 degrees:

Launch Angle: 15.4
Peak height: 30 Yards
Ball Speed: 125 mph
Back spin: 4165 rpm

I have no idea what any of those numbers would ideally be, but those are mine!

 

[Imurg]

You obviously have a fairly decent swing speed.
A 5 wood, with a faster swing speed, often produces too much spin and doesn't go as far as a weaker lofted hybrid or iron.
You have loads more spin on your 5 wood compared to the hybrid.
Judging by your distances replacing the fairways with hybrids might be an option

 

[the_coach]

4 iron average:

Launch angle: 13.9
Peak height: 25 yards.
Ball Speed: 124 mph
Back Spin: 3211 rpm

21 Hybrid:

Launch Angle: 15.6
Peak height: 26 yards
Ball speed: 123 mph
Back Spin: 2717 rpm

5 wood at 19 degrees:

Launch Angle: 15.4
Peak height: 30 Yards
Ball Speed: 125 mph
Back spin: 4165 rpm

I have no idea what any of those numbers would ideally be, but those are mine!

elite player averages with those clubs

18º hybrid AoA -3.5º LA. 10.2º BS 146mph. SR. 4437rpm. PH 29yds. Carry D. 225yds
5 metal AoA -3.3º LA. 9.5º. BS 152mph. SR. 4350rpm. PH 31yds. Carry D. 230yds.
4i AoA -3.4º LA. 11.0º. BS 137mph SR. 4836 rpm. PH 28yds. Carry D. 205yds

would look to find your SF (efficiency no.s) think maybes with a little work on delivery so strike you would be able to get a deal better shot results for the effort you using in the motion.

start off would be to get that can of foot spray & look to see where the contacts are.

 

[DanFST]

start off would be to get that can of foot spray & look to see where the contacts are.

I had a hit with some impact tape today after you mentioned it, and they were very consistent but slightly towards the toe, nothing overly concerning tho. As the GC2 doesn't have the HMT, i'm fairly certain it doesn't guess at SF.

Id there anyway I can tell with that ball speed what I should be carrying with the 5 wood at 19 degrees?