Free Relief?

[Swango1980]

Well according to the OP the lady in question couldn't even reach the ball with her club...I defy anybody to play a stroke in such circumstances....even Mickelson!!

That's fair in terms of the OP. I was just adding to this as many reading could interpret it that, if it is under the bush at all, they do not get free relief at any time. However, had the ball been in a rabbit hole in the side of the bush, so that the player could have some sort of hack out sideways, then they could claim relief.

There would be some middle ground though. One extreme if ball is completely under bush and player cannot even get their ball (they don't get relief). The other extreme example it that it is in the very edge of the bush, and the player would actually still have a full swing at ball with only minimal interference from bush (they do get relief). You then have all the scenarios in between, from players still having a fair chance at hitting ball a good way out, all the way to lying on their stomach and hoping for the best. The referee ultimately needs to make a subjective decision.

Not knocking it, but it is a good reason as to why Phil Mickleson gets away with it so often, as was asked. If I see a golf ball under a bush and think there is no chance that is really playable, and then big Phil strolls over, says it is his ball and confidently tells me he could play a shot from there, I would struggle to argue with his genius. So, if he was in a rabbit hole, then he could justifiably claim relief I guess. If it was any golfer from my club whose ball was in the same position, "in your dreams" would be a more typical response to them claiming they have a shot

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A quick - related (kind of) question. I think the ruling may recently have changed? My buddy's ball is sitting on a layer of leaves covering much of a bunker - his stance would be on a layer of leaves. He was thinking he'd get free relief from them - dropping in sand away from the leaves in the bunker not nearer the hole.

1) My view was that he could remove as many of the leaves as he wanted - but no free relief. Am I correct?
2) Can he mark the position of his ball and clear ALL the leaves away - including any that were under his ball or that if moved by him in clearing leaves from around his ball might cause his ball to move?

 

[doublebogey7]

A quick - related (kind of) question. I think the ruling may recently have changed? My buddy's ball is sitting on a layer of leaves covering much of a bunker - his stance would be on a layer of leaves. He was thinking he'd get free relief from them - dropping in sand away from the leaves in the bunker not nearer the hole.

1) My view was that he could remove as many of the leaves as he wanted - but no free relief. Am I correct?
2) Can he mark the position of his ball and clear ALL the leaves away - including any that were under his ball or that if moved by him in clearing leaves from around his ball might cause his ball to move?

You are right, but would add that there would be a penalty of one stroke if he caused the ball to move whilst removing the leaves.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

And this is what he can do

https://heavy.com/sports/2019/10/phil-mickelson-video-golf-shot-bushes/

To be fair I'm not sure this was the incident he got relief from. From memory the issue was a sprinkler on a stake in a bush and he claimed relief from the bush as his ball was in the bush and the sprinkler prohibited a stroke.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

To be fair I'm not sure this was the incident he got relief from. From memory the issue was a sprinkler on a stake in a bush and he claimed relief from the bush as his ball was in the bush and the sprinkler prohibited a stroke.

I believe this was the one in question.
https://golf-martial-lapointe.com/l...ion-mickelson-and-the-knowledge-of-the-rules/

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You are right, but would add that there would be a penalty of one stroke if he caused the ball to move whilst removing the leaves.

ok good.

As we have placing in our bunkers (effectively preferred lies) could he have marked his ball position to lift it - cleared all the leaves away - then placed his ball back where, or within 6” of where, he picked it from?

 

[doublebogey7]

ok good.

As we have placing in our bunkers (effectively preferred lies) could he have marked his ball position to lift it - cleared all the leaves away - then placed his ball back where, or within 6” of where, he picked it from?

He could

 

[Leftie]

He could

Hmmm Are you sure. I thought that you had to drop or place before clearing loose impediments. As usual though, could be wrong - and/or the rule might have changed Is there a scratching head emoji ??

 

[backwoodsman]

Hmmm Are you sure. I thought that you had to drop or place before clearing loose impediments. As usual though, could be wrong - and/or the rule might have changed Is there a scratching head emoji ??

Yep, he's correct. One of the official interpretations (15.1a/3) explains it. If the ball is to be dropped or placed (ie the is no requirement for the ball to be put back on exact original spot) then you can clear away loose impediment before you drop it or place it. But if you are replacing the ball (ie it has to go back on exact spot) then no you can't.

 

[jim8flog]

Hmmm Are you sure. I thought that you had to drop or place before clearing loose impediments. As usual though, could be wrong - and/or the rule might have changed Is there a scratching head emoji ??

You may be confusing yourself with this

But there are two exceptions:
Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced: Before replacing a ball that was lifted or moved from anywhere except the putting green:
• A player must not deliberately remove a loose impediment that, if moved when the ball was at rest, would have been likely to have caused the ball to move.
• If the player does so, he or she gets one penalty stroke, but the removed loose impediment does not need to be replaced.

 

[Foxholer]

... She thought I was wrong and played under penalty of stroke and distance. Who was right?

Worth pointing out that where this situation does NOT allow player free relief, it's not Stroke and Distance that applies, simply the standard penalty for Unplayable Ball. Though, of course, S&D is one of the player's options.

 

[backwoodsman]

If a ball is sitting on a loose impediment, specifically in the middle of a leaf, how do you move that leaf after you've marked the ball?
Surely you mark the position of the ball, and as such your tee or coin will be sitting on top of the leaf precisely behind where the ball was?
Wouldn't you have to keep it there until you place the ball within 6 inches, and then try and move the leaf without moving the ball?

That's surely only problem if the ball is still on the leaf after you've lifted & placed it within 6 inches? And presumably, more fool you if it is?

 

[jim8flog]

If a ball is sitting on a loose impediment, specifically in the middle of a leaf, how do you move that leaf after you've marked the ball?
Surely you mark the position of the ball, and as such your tee or coin will be sitting on top of the leaf precisely behind where the ball was?
Wouldn't you have to keep it there until you place the ball within 6 inches, and then try and move the leaf without moving the ball?

The rules of golf no longer require the position of the ball to be marked when it is being moved to another location.

 

[Swango1980]

A quick - related (kind of) question. I think the ruling may recently have changed? My buddy's ball is sitting on a layer of leaves covering much of a bunker - his stance would be on a layer of leaves. He was thinking he'd get free relief from them - dropping in sand away from the leaves in the bunker not nearer the hole.

1) My view was that he could remove as many of the leaves as he wanted - but no free relief. Am I correct?
2) Can he mark the position of his ball and clear ALL the leaves away - including any that were under his ball or that if moved by him in clearing leaves from around his ball might cause his ball to move?

Wow ?
I've just read up on that, if we are replacing the ball on the spot it needs to be marked, but if using Preferred Lies, ie winter rules, it doesn't.
Seems a bit bonkers, bloke walks up to his ball, it's covered in mud, he picks it up and cleans it and then there's a 4 man fight in the middle of the 6th fairways because someone thinks he's put it back 10 inches from where it was originally and he says 6...?

Man picks up ball to clean it. Talks to mates. Then goes to replace, but lost his orientation of where he actually is. He ends up placing it 1 metre away from where it sat originally. That 4 man fight intensifies

 

[robinthehood]

Wow ?
I've just read up on that, if we are replacing the ball on the spot it needs to be marked, but if using Preferred Lies, ie winter rules, it doesn't.
Seems a bit bonkers, bloke walks up to his ball, it's covered in mud, he picks it up and cleans it and then there's a 4 man fight in the middle of the 6th fairways because someone thinks he's put it back 10 inches from where it was originally and he says 6...?

Yeah, although to be fair, when you did have to mark, so many people didnt bother anyway. We've legalised an existing practise!

 

[jim8flog]

Player puts down a marker lifts cleans and places it somewhere outside of the 6" and even possibly closer to the hole. Who really notices or checks? Particularly if you are some distance away.

There are many occasions when golf has to be about personal integrity.

I take the view that if I am going to move away from the area to clean the ball then I will put down a marker.

 

[Foxholer]

If a ball is sitting on a loose impediment, specifically in the middle of a leaf, how do you move that leaf after you've marked the ball?
Surely you mark the position of the ball, and as such your tee or coin will be sitting on top of the leaf precisely behind where the ball was?
Wouldn't you have to keep it there until you place the ball within 6 inches, and then try and move the leaf without moving the ball?

Marking your ball doesn't require it to be hard up against the ball! If you mark it an inch or 2 away (so not touching the leaf), pick the ball up, remove the leaf, then put the ball back that inch or 2 from the marker. A 50p coin works well to get the distance accurate.
Btw. Leaves often allow better strikes, so I'll consider whether to even bother!

 

[rulie]

Player puts down a marker lifts cleans and places it somewhere outside of the 6" and even possibly closer to the hole. Who really notices or checks? Particularly if you are some distance away.

There are many occasions when golf has to be about personal integrity.

I take the view that if I am going to move away from the area to clean the ball then I will put down a marker.

And that is recognized in the Rules, Rule 1.3b(2),
(2) Accepting Player’s “Reasonable Judgment” in Determining a Location When Applying the Rules.

• Many Rules require a player to determine a spot, point, line, area or other location under the Rules, such as:
• • Estimating where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area,
  • Estimating or measuring when dropping or placing a ball in taking relief, or
  • Replacing a ball on its original spot (whether the spot is known or estimated).
• Such determinations about location need to be made promptly and with care but often cannot be precise.
• So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information.
• If a player becomes aware of a wrong determination before the stroke is made, it must be corrected (see Rule 14.5).

 

[rulie]

Right, so now "place within 6 inches" means "place where you want mate, and it's OK because nobody can prove you're cheating" .

Middle of the fairway, in reality it's no big deal if it's 6 or a bit more. There are plenty of occasions, particularly around the green, for example the ball is on the fringe but up against the longer grass behind it, when taking only the maximum allowed distance can make a big difference. For someone to suddenly decree that the ball doesn't have to be marked seems pretty whacky to me.

It's been that way since January 1, 2019. Is it just being noticed now?

 

[robinthehood]

Right, so now "place within 6 inches" means "place where you want mate, and it's OK because nobody can prove you're cheating" .

Middle of the fairway, in reality it's no big deal if it's 6 or a bit more. There are plenty of occasions, particularly around the green, for example the ball is on the fringe but up against the longer grass behind it, when taking only the maximum allowed distance can make a big difference. For someone to suddenly decree that the ball doesn't have to be marked seems pretty whacky to me.

Well I expect golfers not to cheat as the game is largely self governed and there are tons of places they could do so and i'd never know. This is just one more to that.