Forged vs cast...explain

Tiger

Tiger

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Right me again and another question. Now this isn't what is better it's about performance. I love my AP1 irons. They are great. Titleist make other irons. These look prettier, are more expensive and harder to hit. Now mine are designed to be extremely forgiving. My question is if (and by the way this is not going to happen for several years) in fact I'm going to reword this.

If, hypothetically, I decided to trade my clubs in for AP2's or blades like the MB's what performance benefit would I get to counter balance the increased difficulty of finding the sweetspot. I understand the risk but what's the reward? Does a smaller sweetspot mean more distance when you hit it?

Thanks again and to be clear I have NO intention of changing my irons, it's just another one of those questions that I have never had answered. :D
 
It will be easyer to work the ball, you will get more feed back from the club face so you know your doing the right thing, or not.


Are AP1s cast?
 
You can have more complicated shapes in a cast iron, and incorporate lumps of different materials. Doing this means you can play with the MOI and get a more forgiving iron. These will tend to stay straighter, and get the ball up quicker from a variety of lies.

For a forged iron, the sole will be thinner, the shape simpler, the MOI lower, and normally the cg is higher. This will give a more penetrating flight, and one that is easier to work. The sweet spot will be smaller due to the lower MOI. They will give more feedback on poor strikes because of the reduced MOI. What you do with this information is another question.

The forged may go further due to the lower spin, but may be not. Distance is mainly due to loft and club head speed.

The big advantage of forged is they are great to look at. The main disadvantage is that after 2 weeks in a bag they look 100 years old due to them being very soft steel and easily bashed.
 
As Alex said it is easier to "work" the ball but the downside to this is that, well I find anyway, if you hit a hooky or slicey shot the effect gets multiplied! Also with the MB's I have there is very little offset on them so you kind of have to get it right as there is no forgiveness, but having said that I dont think that they are as bad as some people would have you believe (as long as your ball striking is reasonable).
 
I guess the main part is down to flight control mate.

Your AP 1's are designed to get the ball up in the air with every club. The AP 2's do this to a lesser extent through the set but mainly with the longer irons. A set of blades would do this minimally.

Game improvement irons really do help people get the ball in the air but sometimes that is the last things you want.

I use Mizzy MP68's and before that MP37's and various blades before that. I find control you get from the blade design a must and I think the game would be less enjoyable without it.

Distance wise I would doubt you'd get any benefit against a game improvement iron. Some GI irons have tricked up lofts so would look even more in favour or the opposite.

Forged feels softer and gives players more control. Well to be honest this is probably minimal in reality and it would be interesting to see some blind test results someday.
I genuinly think I could tell the difference but in all fairness I haven't hit a GI/Cast iron pretty much ever, I know ping have some nice cast heads and some people swear by them. Who knows maybe they are too old to feel the difference.
One thing I do know is that a set of Pings will last forever but my Mizzies got replaced after 4 years last time and playing a little bit more now might be looking at 3 or even 2 this time even though I have head covers this time!!
You can get longer out of them really but I find the grooves start losing their sharp edges and don't respond as well.

You trade off all the forgiveness, distance, high flights and lastability for a bit of control. Call me crazy but I'd do it everytime.

Oh plus they look better!
 
I listened to a podcast the other day that featured an interview with a top club designer; he said that in their tests they had found no difference in performance characteristic between forged and cast irons of the same design. Any 'feel', 'softness' etc, was down to design (eg, size of cavity, thickness of face, etc) and not manufacturing process. He went on to confirm what Morph said above; casting makes it possible/easier/cheaper to mass produce complex designs.

Are forged irons easier to repair, withstand frequent loft/lie adjustment better, last longer?
 
Are forged irons easier to repair, withstand frequent loft/lie adjustment better, last longer?
Click to expand...

Don't know about repair but frequent tweaks on the loft/lie machine shouldn't be a problem qith forged clubs but with cast ones you have to be very careful - snappage is common!!

I echo the above comments - less forgiveness, more control, easier to work, no so easy to get in the air.
 
My last set of clubs were Mizuno MX 17 which are cast cavitity back GI irons. I hit these much further than my MP57/32 but no feedback what so ever. I also had trouble with the wide sole on tight lies. Could not shape the ball at all and only started once I had changed. If you are looking to hit it further buying forged irons is not going to make any difference imo, you would be better served increasing your club head speed.
 
I listened to a podcast the other day that featured an interview with a top club designer; he said that in their tests they had found no difference in performance characteristic between forged and cast irons of the same design. Any 'feel', 'softness' etc, was down to design (eg, size of cavity, thickness of face, etc) and not manufacturing process. He went on to confirm what Morph said above; casting makes it possible/easier/cheaper to mass produce complex designs.

Are forged irons easier to repair, withstand frequent loft/lie adjustment better, last longer?
Click to expand...


Link to that podcast please.


Also, as has been commented on, cast do not really go further, it is usualy that the lofts are different.
 
As I understand it from watching the video on forging on the Mizuno website, cast steel has a different structure to forged steel.

http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/forging/forgingahead.php

Theoretically this should mean it feels different when you hit the ball. I have hit cast and forged clubs and do prefer the "feel" of the forged clubs more but that could just be due to design features/club head shape/placebo effect etc. Forged steel is softer and again that should make a difference. I suppose you'd need to do a blind test with identical design of clubs in cast and forged to find out whether you could really tell the difference. Have a feeling this was done once but can't remember when or what the result was.
 
Link to that podcast please.
Click to expand...

Why did I know someone would ask for that?

Its an iTunes podcast from Golf Better @ Edwin Watts Golf with a release date of 13 Aug 2010. The podcast features an interview by Tom Brassel (TB) with John Solheim (JS), son of Karsten Solheim and president of Ping golf. He talks about product technolgy. The part I refer to is at about 15 mins and 40 seconds. Quote:

JS - '..a forged materiel will end up being stonger than a cast material...'
TB - 'Is that what gives it that soft feel as well?'
JS - 'The soft feel thing is debatable.. the thing that gives it the most soft feel is the fact that it says forged on the back of the club'
TB - [chuckle]
JS - 'The feel comes [from] the design and if you look.. most forged clubs in the past have been more of a blade style and.. thats really in all our testing; the design is the big lever of the feel.. as you get a larger club face with a thinner face, its going to have more of a tinny feel, as you have more of a compact club head with a thicker face, it has more of a solid, softer feel.'
JS - '..we've taken clubs ..of identical design, forged and casted, and you can't tell the difference.'

http://www.edwinwattsgolf.com/podcast/golfbetter.xml

So, in sum, according to John Solheim (someone who really ought to know his stuff); forged clubs do typically have a different feel than cast clubs, only its not the fact that they're forged that makes them different, its the design; 2 clubs of the same design, one forged, the other cast, will feel the same.

Just don't ask me how I remember the content of a 6 month old podcast.

 
One thing to remember, thin a 3 iron on a cold morning and it doesn't matter if it's forged or cast they both really hurt like hell ;)
 
Link to that podcast please.
Click to expand...

Why did I know someone would ask for that?

Its an iTunes podcast from Golf Better @ Edwin Watts Golf with a release date of 13 Aug 2010. The podcast features an interview by Tom Brassel (TB) with John Solheim (JS), son of Karsten Solheim and president of Ping golf. He talks about product technolgy. The part I refer to is at about 15 mins and 40 seconds. Quote:

JS - '..a forged materiel will end up being stonger than a cast material...'
TB - 'Is that what gives it that soft feel as well?'
JS - 'The soft feel thing is debatable.. the thing that gives it the most soft feel is the fact that it says forged on the back of the club'
TB - [chuckle]
JS - 'The feel comes [from] the design and if you look.. most forged clubs in the past have been more of a blade style and.. thats really in all our testing; the design is the big lever of the feel.. as you get a larger club face with a thinner face, its going to have more of a tinny feel, as you have more of a compact club head with a thicker face, it has more of a solid, softer feel.'
JS - '..we've taken clubs ..of identical design, forged and casted, and you can't tell the difference.'

http://www.edwinwattsgolf.com/podcast/golfbetter.xml

So, in sum, according to John Solheim (someone who really ought to know his stuff); forged clubs do typically have a different feel than cast clubs, only its not the fact that they're forged that makes them different, its the design; 2 clubs of the same design, one forged, the other cast, will feel the same.

Just don't ask me how I remember the content of a 6 month old podcast.
Click to expand...

And on the Mizuno site Masao Nagai, Mizuno Global Director of Golf R&D, and a trained metallurgical engineer (who I assume also really ought to know his stuff) says

"We once tried to fool our in-house pro by giving him two identical-looking clubs to try. We told him both were made from forged carbon steel, but in fact one was cast stainless. The instant he hit it he turned to us and said: "What is that? It feels dead."

So surprise, surprise, John Solheim whose company happen to make cast clubs says there is no difference, wheras Mizuno, who happen to make forged clubs say there is.

Reckon it's a case of "you pays your money and you takes your choice."
 
So surprise, surprise, John Solheim whose company happen to make cast clubs says there is no difference, wheras Mizuno, who happen to make forged clubs say there is.

Reckon it's a case of "you pays your money and you takes your choice."
Click to expand...


Nice
 
And on the Mizuno site Masao Nagai, Mizuno Global Director of Golf R&D, and a trained metallurgical engineer (who I assume also really ought to know his stuff) says

"We once tried to fool our in-house pro by giving him two identical-looking clubs to try. We told him both were made from forged carbon steel, but in fact one was cast stainless. The instant he hit it he turned to us and said: "What is that? It feels dead."

So surprise, surprise, John Solheim whose company happen to make cast clubs says there is no difference, wheras Mizuno, who happen to make forged clubs say there is.

Reckon it's a case of "you pays your money and you takes your choice."
Click to expand...


LOL, nice one. I hadnt thought of that. I had assumed that Ping made forged clubs.
 
Right. Let me get this right. Ping and Mizuno disagree on this blinking 'feel' term again. And essentially forged clubs are
  • harder to hit
    likely to accentuate a hook / slice
    more difficult to get airborne
    provide a more penetrating flight
    but not necessarily more distance
    get battered within a couple of months so they are not as pretty
    which is ironic as being aesthetically pleasing is one of their plus points
    AND cost more

    *not to mention that you might lose both your arms through richter scale measurable vibrations if you catch one thin on a winters morning!
Despite all this some of you still swear by them. This golf malarkey is fascinating and intriguing. You give a clear outline of the negative aspects of something and still find it desirable. You recognise that new kit won't make you better but you'll still buy it.

But the standout thing for me is this workability stuff. We all talk on here about a desire to hit the ball straighter and more accurately. We plead with manufacturers to produce us clubs that may travel less distance but massively improve our dispersion. Wisemen warn us of the pitfalls of the implausible low running banana hook in favour of a more sensible medicine taking strategy. At the same time some of you crazy folk will ignore equipment designed to be more forgiving and go straighter because of magpie syndrome and this nebulous feel concept.

I will no doubt join your Mizuno butter knife wielding clan in the future and look regretfully back at this rant with a disdainful shake of the head but until then I can safely say I think it's all bonkers :o :D
 
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