European Super League

[Tashyboy]

And the semantics of that would happily be argued in court making the legal guys a lot of money.

A 20 points deduction (as some have suggested) would make the following years CL less attractive as not all the best PL clubs would manage to qualify, UEFA are not going to like that surely.

As much as i disagree with a ( 20 ) points deduction. And it’s all hypothetical. It wouldn’t really be much of a punishment. City would still be in a champs league place, So would all the Spanish and 2 of the Italian teams. Spurs would still release a dvd. So am not to sure it would affect UEFA that much. For me since Platini has gone not a lot has changed at UEFA,and until they sort themselves out they will not sort out european football.

 

[Billysboots]

I'll stop there otherwise @Billysboots will start to get flashbacks again...

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No, it says during the Season a club shall not enter or play... This is the 2020 - 2021 PL season. The ESL will not start at the earliest until August 2021 - 2022. So the lawyers will argue the toss around the meaning of during, Season and enter. Unless the PL has tightened up its regulations tighter than a shark's bottom at 50 fathoms, there is plenty of wriggle room.

Trust me on this one, it is not as black and white as it appears. If you don't believe me, get a copy of a statute and look at the definitions in the fine print. I'll stop there otherwise @Billysboots will start to get flashbacks again...

Are you suggesting that clubs cannot be punished and all we can really do is humiliate the supporters of the shameful 6 at each and every opportunity? .

Everton v London Blaze tonight, looking forward to it

 

[Blue in Munich]

Are you suggesting that clubs cannot be punished and all we can really do is humiliate the supporters of the shameful 6 at each and every opportunity? .

Everton v London Blaze tonight, looking forward to it

I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Demote them? The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction? Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban? Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners? Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Demote them? The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction? Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban? Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners? Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?

Maybe tell the owners they have two years to find a buyer then they are banned from owning a football club in the UK.
But I can see lots of complications in this so it’s just a thought.
but it might stop any futher attempts at a breakaway in future.

 

[larmen]

If I was one of the 6 and we were hit with a 20 point deduction I would treat it as a “free year” and blood a team full of youngsters, building a team for the future. As long as you don’t get relegated you can’t really lose. No-one would expect you to win anything and as we know, you win nothing with kids. It would certainly provide breathing space and in the long run could save a shed load of cash.
Of course neither the deduction or playing kids is going to happen.

How many points do people think we can take of the big 6 and they are still winning stuff? 10? 15?

Arsenal might be in trouble but City or Liverpool still win the league?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Demote them? The Premier League's television rights value takes a big hit; Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Swansea, Brentford & Barnsley don't have the same box office appeal.

Points deduction? Potentially risks part of the above, but realistically only gives the title to someone else for a year, one that will always have an asterisk against it.

Transfer ban? Their squads are probably big enough to withstand it, and it potentially deprives lower clubs of income that they might depend on.

Fine the owners? Chump change to the guys.

What punishment will actually punish them without punishing those around them equally?

Maybe leave that decision to the other Clubs and let them vote on it, as at the moment everything is about money and there seems no way to punish them and just allow them to carry on as they want.

Maybe now is the time to press the reset button, all Clubs starting equal, less TV money, more help for the lower leagues, lower wages, lower ticket prices etc, almost taking 2 steps back to go 1 step forward.

Might take 10-15yrs to sort out, but if it’s for the best and secures the future of English Football then there has to be pain and the pain taken by everyone, just some take a bit more pain.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Bit disingenious to cut and paste part of wiki tash, the TV deal in 1992 was £304 million over 5 years, yes a hideous sum and yes part greed, but look at the background as to why? The Taylor Report had come out, Stadiums had to be improved, who was going to pay? I’d guess the Football Fan and without that change some Clubs may of gone under.

The so called “big 5” then also brought along 17 other Clubs in to the Premier League, didn’t want seperate competitions and increased relegation promotion with no one immune.

What they envisaged then to what we have now is beyond all recognition.

As I posted earlier, no doubt the ESL believed everyone would benefit from their seperation, but to me it was more than money, the formation of the PL was to benefit English football, not 9 other Clubs around Europe.

One further point, ( not aimed at you Tash) back in 18/19 when the charges against City for breaking the ffp system were brought, people also wanted City done for the legal loopholes they’d circumvented as well, so if it was ok to want to throw the book at them for that, I can understand people wanting action against the 6, even if proved they broke no rules.

And as a result, compare how many different clubs won the league in the 28 years since, compared to the 28 before the premier league started.

The greed in football changed in intensity then, exacerbated by the "oily" ones since and everyone trying to play catch up.

I could go into all scenarios of punishment, but instead of punishment what about re-organisation instead, so that the money in the game is spread around better, which ultimately will be at the expense of the 6, as well as their owners in the long run (who were the ONLY protagonists).

If the punishment goes too far and hits the players and fans of the 6, maybe next time they wont campaign to overturn it and will think sod youse, we helped to stop it, and we're worse off!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

And as a result, compare how many different clubs won the league in the 28 years since, compared to the 28 before the premier league started.

The greed in football changed in intensity then, exacerbated by the "oily" ones since and everyone trying to play catch up.

I could go into all scenarios of punishment, but instead of punishment what about re-organisation instead, so that the money in the game is spread around better, which ultimately will be at the expense of the 6, as well as their owners in the long run (who were the ONLY protagonists).

If the punishment goes too far and hits the players and fans of the 6, maybe next time they wont campaign to overturn it and will think sod youse, we helped to stop it, and we're worse off!!!!!!!

I don’t agree with points docked or bans, said earlier this week, fine the owners and give the money to lower leagues or charity, that’s enough for me.

I do like the idea of re-organisation though.

 

[Sweep]

There’s something about this whole super league business that has me puzzled.
12 teams were competing, another 6 had said nope. Big banks in the USA were involved. People who were employed by UEFA were involved. And yet at no point did anyone whistleblow. Even the teams that were against it. No one said a dicky bird. We had an inkling the greedy clubs were up to a dastardly deed. But no one had any idea re what and when this failed league was going to start. A lot of people knew what was being planned and yet not a whisper. Why? Was it really that well planned and secretive. If any of the red tops had a sniff of this they would of been like flies round a day old turd. How they managed to keep it so quiet is beyond me.

That’s a very good point Tash and you know, I don’t think any of them thought there would be such a backlash. People only whisper secretly about secrets. If no-one in the know thought it was such a big deal they probably didn’t think there was much to be gained by breaking a confidentiality clause.
If you read my first post at the start of this thread you will see that I was puzzled by the strength of the reaction. I understand more now, but I guess I am still just more accepting of the big money in the game than the average fan. So, I can see why the owners were surprised but at the same time they shouldn’t have put themselves and their clubs in that position. It’s their job to understand these things and they singularly failed to understand their own businesses. And that’s a pretty big error to make.

 

[Tashyboy]

That’s a very good point Tash and you know, I don’t think any of them thought there would be such a backlash. People only whisper secretly about secrets. If no-one in the know thought it was such a big deal they probably didn’t think there was much to be gained by breaking a confidentiality clause.
If you read my first post at the start of this thread you will see that I was puzzled by the strength of the reaction. I understand more now, but I guess I am still just more accepting of the big money in the game than the average fan. So, I can see why the owners were surprised but at the same time they shouldn’t have put themselves and their clubs in that position. It’s their job to understand these things and they singularly failed to understand their own businesses. And that’s a pretty big error to make.

The bit I could not understand from Citys point of view. Why was Pep not kept in the loop. If I was him I would be bloody livid. His gaffers are supposed to be friends. He would of told City point blank to shove it. I think there could be one or two fall outs re this League that may have more damaging consequences than point deduction and penalties etc.

 

[Billysboots]

I'm suggesting that the issue with punishing them is dear old Isaac's 3rd Law of Motion; to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You’re such a tease ?

 

[Billysboots]

https://www.skysports.com/share/12284902

A measured, sensible starting point. And in addition to the 14 other clubs wanting this, the fans of the “Big Six” would be positively delighted if this was to happen.

 

[Liverbirdie]

It is a simplistic view as you say and one I don’t agree with, but I can understand it, City were to face a ban from the CL, not the PL, so in affect UEFA were once again doing nothing for the PL. FFP is all about European Comps.

No its bloody not, where did you get that from. FFP was also a premiership system.

It was also managed totally wrong by both.

 

[Tashyboy]

Am just finding it a bit odd that owners of the 14 clubs are asking the chief execs to stand down as they don’t trust them. Fair enough but when you consider the troubles that some clubs have had in there own house thinking Sheff utd and Newcastle am not sure were going down the right avenue here.?

 

[Liverbirdie]

So whilst a few English teams fans are moaning about the (rightly) dropped ESL plans, complaining about the money it would bring those in it, does anyone realise that every other league in UEFA is complaining about the money the PL teams have from their tv deals?
Every PL team is collectively guilty of exactly the same thing as those 6.

If the PL teams and fans are so concerned about the lower league teams, why did they vote down the Project Bug Picture that would have given the lower league teams a huge amount of money and support

I have never received a voting paper, so where do you get the above from, and its not "a few" English teams fans, its the vast majority, both supporters of the 6 and all the others.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sky are really continuing to drag it - 3 channels showing “Football Civil “ - getting Neville back there again and all the insights blah blah blah - Sky are loving it

Move on - time to move on and get back to the actual sport

 

[Liverbirdie]

https://www.skysports.com/share/12284902

A measured, sensible starting point. And in addition to the 14 other clubs wanting this, the fans of the “Big Six” would be positively delighted if this was to happen.

I would say okay under normal circumstances, but if some of them chief execs genuinely didnt know about ESL or werent consulted (as has been espoused by some journalists), I dont think it would be fair if they are targeted when they werent involved in it, and was the owners only.

If they did know and were complicit, pass me the pitchfork.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Maybe leave that decision to the other Clubs and let them vote on it, as at the moment everything is about money and there seems no way to punish them and just allow them to carry on as they want.

Maybe now is the time to press the reset button, all Clubs starting equal, less TV money, more help for the lower leagues, lower wages, lower ticket prices etc, almost taking 2 steps back to go 1 step forward.

Might take 10-15yrs to sort out, but if it’s for the best and secures the future of English Football then there has to be pain and the pain taken by everyone, just some take a bit more pain.

Maybe DONT leave it to the other clubs, not only might they go too far, but should they be judge, jury and executioner?

You saw how West ham acted last year when it came down to null and void, due to their perilous relegation situation.

By all means involve them in the conversation, but the decision and findings shouldnt be carried out by them.

Say they said a 30 point deduction for the next 10 years for all 6? mad example, but I'm sorry, be careful what you wish for.

No matter, SOMETHING should be done, an apology isnt enough, sanctions will punish the wrong people, and justice meted out by "concerned parties" who can also benefit from it - Madness!!!!!

Think WW1 / Clemenceau / Treaty of Versailles = WW2, Hitler etc.

Restructure and re-organisation is whats needed - UEFA being held to account more, better distribution of wealth, ticket prices, agents and their fees, World cup finals allocation, and finally a SALARY CAP will go a long way to helping everything. I would gues that 80% of the increased money in the game has gone players and agents. Great once the grounds needed rebuilding, but as that is more than 60-70% done, everything is now going to players wages, agents, hangers on and owners.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Sky are really continuing to drag it - 3 channels showing “Football Civil “ - getting Neville back there again and all the insights blah blah blah - Sky are loving it

Move on - time to move on and get back to the actual sport

Dont get me wrong there is some bollocks getting spouted on this Phil, but things need to settle down, then when calmer heads rule, SOMETHING still needs doing, it can't just be forgotten about with a an insincere apology (by some, not all).