EU Referendum
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
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FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
Yeah it was sort of rhetorical. Probably should've used a smiley! 
Really, who can reform it?
Is it not true that since 1996 Britain has complained and challenged 55 new laws in the council of ministers and we were defeated all 55 times! So currently we can have laws imposed upon us which we can do absolutely squat about even though we believe they are unjust and not in our own country's interest!
Pledges made by our elected government also mean squat when immigration, migration, VAT and anything else that will benefit other European countries at our expense can and will be decided in Brussels.
How can you reform something that is biased, the rest of Europe is a parasite trying to feed off us, it's a load of tosh about trading to and from the world or Europe will be affected, you only have to spend a good deal of time on the motorways to see the amount of foreign vehicles that are delivering goods into us and see the amount of British lorries heading overseas, all that isn't going to stop because we vote out, these countries need and want our business and vice versa, and being in or out of Europe will not change that, because we are still in Europe geographically, we just don't want to be ruled by a non elected body and have our own laws squashed or dictated to by those countries that will benefit greater by them at our cost!
Vote OUT!
and, just when you think it should be easier by being in Europe allowing us to deport criminals and not have the expense of having them in our jails costing us millions, this report actually goes on to state that Brussels makes it more difficult if not obstructs us from deporting anyone undesirable back to their country of origin!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
If you read it it states that the failure to deport these criminals will lead to people questioning the benefits in the EU. It does not state that the EU or Brussels are blocking the deportation, that is a spin on this taken by the leave campaigners. It is questioning the efficiencies of the deportation process by the current government.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-directorates-q4-2015-report-published-16-17/
You didn't answer my question though on how can we reform something that is clearly showing a total disregard to what we think is best for ourselves and not Europe, we have challenged many laws imposed on us to no avail, so what will change, I think it can and will only get worse!
On your other point..
Committee chairman Labour MP Keith Vaz said the Home Office was failing to tackle the issue "despite repeated warnings".
"The public would expect our membership of the European Union to make it easier to deport European offenders, but this is clearly not the case, and we continue to keep thousands of these criminals at great and unnecessary expense," he said.
Vote Leave claimed the foreign offenders were costing £36,000 a year each to jail, and that the EU made it "more difficult" to deport overseas criminals."
"You've got to be at the table to be able to change it," says Merkel.
Is that the same Merkel who blocked the major point in the negotiations that Cameron had a few months back?
When he was at the table he came away with diddly squat.
I find it hugely unfair that we have to pay to be in the club yet 18 other countries are paid to be in the club. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave? And Germany would have to pick up a major share of our payment if we left. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave!
Is that the same Merkel who blocked the major point in the negotiations that Cameron had a few months back?
When he was at the table he came away with diddly squat.
I find it hugely unfair that we have to pay to be in the club yet 18 other countries are paid to be in the club. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave? And Germany would have to pick up a major share of our payment if we left. Is it any wonder they don't want us to leave!
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
I am not arguing the first point, you would expect it to be easier, it's a fair point well made by the parliamentary committee. But the claim that the EU is making it difficult comes from the leave campaign and I can see no evidence for that in the report.
And the problem with that is that if the EU is not the cause of the problem, then coming out will make sod all difference, we will still have these criminals that we need to deport to countries that we theoretically have fewer ties with now. Yes the current system does not seem to be working and it needs reforming and making more efficient, but I can't see how coming out will make it better. Unless the leave campaign has any suggestions instead of just saying the current system is all Brussels fault?
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
And as for reform then as a basic principle I believe you have to have a voice and be part of that group to have a chance of influencing something. I'm not claiming that that voice will always be listened to, but not being in that group will mean you have no influence whatsoever.
Think of it like golf club committees. Many times on here people say if you want to influence what goes on in your club and help reform it and possibly modernise it a bit then stop moaning on Internet forums and do something about it, join the committee. Which is a fair point. Same principle to me with the EU.
Think of it like golf club committees. Many times on here people say if you want to influence what goes on in your club and help reform it and possibly modernise it a bit then stop moaning on Internet forums and do something about it, join the committee. Which is a fair point. Same principle to me with the EU.
But if you aren't in the club why would you want to reform it. I wish I had a Euro for every time I've sat in a committee meeting and had zero influence because a cartel of committee members have decided the issue before the meeting.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I find it amusing that to change a golf club bye law, for instance to admit women, requires a 66% vote, whilst something as important as an in/out referendum on leaving the EU, or in Scotland case, the UK, can be decided by 50% of the vote, plus one vote.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
But if you are on the committee for long enough and have enough influence and reputation then would you not become one of the decision making cartel? And might other people who also agreed with you possibly feel more confident to speak out against the status quo if they knew they were not alone?
I think 14 years on committee gave me a fair idea of how it worked. And no, I voted for each issue on its merits, and got rollocked for not voting with the cartel on a number of occasions.
The increasing influence of the Visigard within the EU was one reason I'd absolutely vote out. Its becoming like the Eurovision Song Contest. It doesn't matter what the western European nations want, the Eastern European nations are voting en-bloc.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
And still the political commentators don't ask the question of Cameron and the remain follows why "The end of the world wasn't nigh" a year ago when Cameron said we would leave if we didn't get the sanctions which we require (which we still haven't). What has changed in a year?
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
You're watching the wrong programmes, I recently saw him asked this directly.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
What programme was that on and what was his reply?
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
We are not voting to actually change anything though. Just being asked a question (like Scotland). Obviously the numbers will then affect future policy but it's not set in stone that a 51% - 49% vote to leave will actually mean we'll leave. I too agree that for something as important as this (and Scotland independence) there should be a real mandate. Maybe not 66% but say 60-40 or perhaps 55-45.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
Not sure what the programme was and, of course, he weasled out some smarmy non-answer.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
So if there wasn't a suitable percentage vote would you keep holding referendums until there was?
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
Er, no. I wouldn't hold a referendum at all. They are a very bad idea. At best they are a reasonably accurate assessment of public opinion on issues they mostly know very little about (.....and I include myself in that statement as well as you and most of the population). Oh, and those who do know a lot about economics, business, finance, health, science investment, security etc are overwhelmingly in favour of staying in. Not that I'd let facts like that influence me at all.
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