Etiquette

[Slab]

How many different golf courses do play each year ? How busy is your current course with either members or guest fees ?

Woburn for example found it was becoming that bad in regards - pitch marks , bunkers , divots etc that they increased their communication and notices and Marshalls were informed to take special notice - especially with corperate days

Maybe the ones who don't see the poor etiquette on the course can't because it's them being part of the poor etiquette :mmm:

If you're thinking that I see less poor etiquette due to low volume traffic courses or members only gaffs, that's not the case

I rotate through half a dozen courses, playing every week.
Every day of every week (all year round) there will be 100-200 players per day, mostly made up of tourists, expats clubs, members, societies and comps/tournaments, a more diverse bunch would be hard to find

I do see instances of poor etiquette when i'm on the course but not anything I'd consider outwith the tolerances of human nature


I have to admit that where I am lucky is that each course has between 50-70 ground-staff to make sure the course at least starts each day in good condition and additional work is completed quickly but that doesn't mean they repair pitch-marks throughout the day or rake bunkers, this is down to the players, same as walking on someones line or bag chatter at the wrong time (although one course requests divots are not repaired by players)

I'd imagine Woburn must have a similar number of greenstaff and starts the day with the course as good as it can be so it needs to ask itself why it appears to attract this golfing behaviour which is very much in the minority

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you're thinking that I see less poor etiquette due to low volume traffic courses or members only gaffs, that's not the case

I rotate through half a dozen courses, playing every week.
Every day of every week (all year round) there will be 100-200 players per day, mostly made up of tourists, expats clubs, members, societies and comps/tournaments, a more diverse bunch would be hard to find

I do see instances of poor etiquette when i'm on the course but not anything I'd consider outwith the tolerances of human nature


I have to admit that where I am lucky is that each course has between 50-70 ground-staff to make sure the course at least starts each day in good condition and additional work is completed quickly but that doesn't mean they repair pitch-marks throughout the day or rake bunkers, this is down to the players, same as walking on someones line or bag chatter at the wrong time (although one course requests divots are not repaired by players)

I'd imagine Woburn must have a similar number of greenstaff and starts the day with the course as good as it can be so it needs to ask itself why it appears to attract this golfing behaviour which is very much in the minority

Do you really believe poor etiquette is in a minority ?

How many threads have we had recently in regards slow play , people being held up - even GM have made a series of videos in regard slow play

If The level of poor etiquette is enough to spoil other people's enjoyment of the course and do damage to a golf course ( remember not many clubs have the luxury of 70 green staff ) then it's enough to do something about it

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As an observation on etiquette......In the early 1990's I managed a very busy municipal course 65,000 rounds pa plus over 1,000 members.
There was always a battle between casual and club use.
The club members complained bitterly about the etiquette of the casual players especially, divots, pitchmarks and bunker raking.
To enable the smooth running of major competitions we introduced a members only closed tee booking. 240 players from 6am to 2pm.

I asked the club secretary and captain to examine the course immediately after the members had played. They were astonished with the poor state of pitchmarks on greens, unraked bunkers and divots not replaced.


Like slow play, the folk who complain are, on many occasions, the biggest culprits.

 

[Slab]

Do you really believe poor etiquette is in a minority ?

How many threads have we had recently in regards slow play , people being held up - even GM have made a series of videos in regard slow play

If The level of poor etiquette is enough to spoil other people's enjoyment of the course and do damage to a golf course ( remember not many clubs have the luxury of 70 green staff ) then it's enough to do something about it

So is 150 players a day, 7days a week, 52 weeks a year not enough traffic to give me an indication of course etiquette? Granted I'm not there daily but I cant believe other players change their behavior just on the days I go along

I think pace of play can be a problem on some days and could be included under the heading of poor etiquette but the threads have also highlighted that pace isn't a player only problem and a group of well behaved golfers can put in a 5hour round simply due to tee spacing, pin placements, comp formats, incorrect tee boxes etc etc So I think we need to look at Pace separately when discussing etiquette

Far more enjoyment sapping course damage is caused by weather conditions, diseases/pests and machinery than any group of golfers who might miss the occasional pitch-mark or footprint

 

[Scott W]

Apologies if points already made (skim read 13 pages) but a couple of thoughts

Pitch Marks

1. Is it possible the pitch marks were repaired but repaired badly. We had a campaign of education at our club as to how to repair a pitch mark (too often people "lift up" the ground which actually tears the roots and makes recovery worse) - they also gave out a free plastic pitch fork in the shop! subtle hint

2. If you do the maths... say 200 rounds x 18 greens = 3,600 "possible pitch marks" x average 33% GIR (I am making this sh*t up!) = circa 1,200 possible repairs. If even considerate golfers miss 5% of PM's (absent mindedness, didnt realise pitched and rolled off) then you are going to get some damage

Bunkers

Less likely to miss/forget but my regular PP recently forgot to rake a bunker on a par 3 and was mortified when group behind pointed it out. Genuine mistake from a guy with strong etiquette

This pic on the other hand screams "tosser" (it was from a resort course!)

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So is 150 players a day, 7days a week, 52 weeks a year not enough traffic to give me an indication of course etiquette? Granted I'm not there daily but I cant believe other players change their behavior just on the days I go along

I think pace of play can be a problem on some days and could be included under the heading of poor etiquette but the threads have also highlighted that pace isn't a player only problem and a group of well behaved golfers can put in a 5hour round simply due to tee spacing, pin placements, comp formats, incorrect tee boxes etc etc So I think we need to look at Pace separately when discussing etiquette

Far more enjoyment sapping course damage is caused by weather conditions, diseases/pests and machinery than any group of golfers who might miss the occasional pitch-mark or footprint

Well then I'm going to say you are very lucky over in Mauritus because through expirence in this and reading and listening I'm going to have to politiely disagree and especially on the damage pitchmarks going unrepaired cause - sitting in monthly greens meetings tells me all I need to know about what damage they cause to a green.'


And pace of play is part of etiquette hence why it's always mentioned in discussing a both etiquette and why it's mentioned in th OP

 

[upsidedown]

Bravo. However I do feel a lot of club members at many courses could do more to repair pitch marks, even if they didn't cause them. Doesn't it come down to a basic etiquette and pride in your own club and course?

I'm at a private member club and in the Winter generally see little poor etiquette, yes we get some slow lay at weekends but that is due to the reduced daylight and everyone wanting a game. The course is normally in pretty good nick re pitch marks and bunkers as we do have our fair share of moaners who put right those who don't repair or rake :thup:

How ever in our busy Summer months we do get quite a few societies who can be painfully slow and lacking in raking skills.

I also play a lot of golf away and have not seen that many instances apart from slow play and as that was mainly in Opens , it was possibly caused by players , who like us , not knowing the course.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But speaking as a high handicapper I thoroughly agree with you, so much so that I get disgusted by the sight of myself playing golf. I have absolutely no sense of self respect. And you know the worst thing, I often don't even consider the hurt and distress I am causing to those golfers who, like yourself, are better than me and should really have the course to themselves. I am so sorry, please don't judge me.

LOL - Oh you are a one HK

Get thee hence to endless night...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yet again someone earlier blamed seniors. Maybe our club is unusual but the several dozen seniors I know do repair pitch marks, do rake bunkers, do play at a reasonable pace and do observe other issues of etiquette. Maybe it is something to do with our age!

It's to do with respect and an awareness and consideration of others rather than just self.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Maybe, just maybe that those who DONT rake replace or repair cos they've got the speed merchants up their arse banging on about slow play, rake replace and repairing takes er ........... Valuable time from the anti slow play busy lives!!!

With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club. It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they do have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them. So why do I find rakes all over the place? Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them? I really don't know. I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.

 

[Fish]

With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club. It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they do have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them. So why do I find rakes all over the place? Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them? I really don't know. I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.

Not making any kind of statement here, just playing devil's advocate, are you saying that as you approach bunkers that you're not necessarily in, or in fact none of your playing group are in, but you notice the rake is facing the wrong way, or its in the bunker and should be out or 50/50, you jump in and correct it as you feel it's your responsibility to do so?

 

[Norrin Radd]

With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club. It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they do have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them. So why do I find rakes all over the place? Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them? I really don't know. I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.

can you tell us all where the correct position for a rake should be? as im sure their are plenty of people willing to learn this most hidden gem of golf law.

 

[Fish]

can you tell us all where the correct position for a rake should be? as im sure their are plenty of people willing to learn this most hidden gem of golf law.

There isn't one, this has been discussed separately in length before, however, every club will have it's own directive, our's are 50/50 in/out, some are fully in and facing the hole/green, some are out and to the side, there are arguments for all these scenarios/positions but none of them are "correct" in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Norrin Radd]

There isn't one, this has been discussed separately in length before, however, every club will have it's own directive, our's are 50/50 in/out, some are fully in and facing the hole/green, some are out and to the side, there are arguments for all these scenarios/positions but none of them are "correct" in the grand scheme of things.

is the correct answer .
i was just wondering where SILH thought the correct place should be as his post suggested there was such a place.

 

[Capella]

I'd much rather have a rake in the "wrong" place after it has been used than having it in the right place because players did not bother using it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not making any kind of statement here, just playing devil's advocate, are you saying that as you approach bunkers that you're not necessarily in, or in fact none of your playing group are in, but you notice the rake is facing the wrong way, or its in the bunker and should be out or 50/50, you jump in and correct it as you feel it's your responsibility to do so?

Yes I do - usually after I have played the hole (though I 'fish' it our rather than jump into the bunker with my size 10s). Especially if any rake is positioned in a way that might cause a following player to curse his bad luck and swear at my group for not putting the rake back properly

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

is the correct answer .
i was just wondering where SILH thought the correct place should be as his post suggested there was such a place.

I have talked about 'correct' place for a rake being that set out by the club. Nothing to do what I might think the 'correct' place for a rake should be. My thoughts are irrelevant on that - it's the clubs that count.

 

[Fish]

Yes I do - usually after I have played the hole. Especially if any rake is positioned in a way that might cause a following player to curse his bad luck and swear at my group for not putting the rake back properly

So again, just playing devil's advocate, I hope your club never has a big problem with bunkers because if I was following you and watching you jump back in bunkers after waiting for you all to putt out and then see you jumping back in greenside bunkers correcting the rakes positions and no doubt having to rake them again also, I'm not sure what I'd think, I know you'd most certainly be unduly delaying yourself and myself by doing so, wouldn't you?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

With raking and rakes.

It's not just the fact of players not raking (or not raking very well) and placing the rakes other than as requested by the club. It's the fact that I can be out any of the week and time of the day - and no matter who I am following I can almost guarantee that when I get to a green I will find rakes in the 'wrong' place.

The point being that even if none of the players in the group ahead were responsible for placing a rake 'wrongly' they do have a responsibility for correcting the laziness/carelessness/errors of those ahead of them. So why do I find rakes all over the place? Because players don't think the state they leave the green, bunkers, rakes etc is anything to do with them? I really don't know. I am truly baffled and frustrated by the failure of so many players to do the simple things, for others.

Etiquette is not where a rake is placed in the bunker or out of the bunker or wherever.

You had a very big thread on it and the same conclusion was given - there is no set place for a rake to go.

 

[Slab]

Etiquette is not where a rake is placed in the bunker or out of the bunker or wherever.

You had a very big thread on it and the same conclusion was given - there is no set place for a rake to go.

A great many courses do have a published/posted set place for the rake to go (they're just not all the same place)

Not following that instruction/guidance for that course must surely be poor etiquette (even if its a different place from last weeks course) A player can't decide which guidelines they follow and which they can disregard