Equipment prices

[Ser Shankalot]

Reading some of the suggestions on the Bargains thread had me looking up the independent or direct to consumer brands like Sub70, Takomo, PXG, etc. For irons, their reviews seem very positive and they have decent choice of styles and shafts (maybe not much left handed). Yet their pricing is a fraction of the major OEMs - even PXG is competitive. I just don't get how the other brands can continue raising pricing as high as they are when there is clearly new cheaper competition for the majority of golfers. It can't be input and raw material costs as this would crush the smaller guys too if they're keeping their end prices low. And I would have thought lockdowns have meant the average consumer is much more comfortable buying physical goods online now than before when you might need to feel something like a club in your hands first.

Yet I feel like I'm the dummy, cause clearly the major brands are being very successful at raising prices. Maybe it requires a 2nd hand market to develop for the independent smaller guys before more people will switch to them so they can see if value is retained? Or a longer track record of quality and after sales service?

 

[peld]

i'd say 3 main reasons:
- Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D. They are spending the dosh to design the next generations of clubs - the DTC brands in general piggy back off those designs (e.g. TM P790s have been copied several times)
- The big brands are paying Tour players
- Because they can charge those prices as they still have the "brand" kudos and prestige

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

A complete new set of brand name golf clubs costs over three thousand dollars in America
and can easily go upwards of four thousand if one chooses premium shafts.

You guys don't do Euros, and I don't know the conversion to Pounds Sterling off the top of my head.

I believe the game is slowly retreating back to its original elitist status in the US.
The Post WWII working class golf boom peaked out some time ago,
and we're going in the opposite direction.

Several green fee (public) courses have been converted to housing developments in my area.

 

[spongebob59]

You pay over the odds for the major brands as they have to pass on all the associated cost of their sponsorship deals, advertising etc.

There have been plenty of lesser known brands eg Benross,Wishon, Snake eyes who produce good clubs at lower prices. Only downside is potential resale.

At the end of the day most of the heads are produced in the same Chinese factory's.

 

[Golfnut1957]

i'd say 3 main reasons:
- Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D. They are spending the dosh to design the next generations of clubs - the DTC brands in general piggy back off those designs (e.g. TM P790s have been copied several times)
- The big brands are paying Tour players
- Because they can charge those prices as they still have the "brand" kudos and prestige

Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D Marketing

Your statement is true, my addition probably has a greater impact on their pricing structure.

 

[Foxholer]

There's still plenty of room in the Golf proucts industry for many flavours of 'producers', but the 'big' brands have certainly increased the cost/their profits in the past few years.
PXG's exorbitant pricing showed how marketing of 'aspirational' products could/can work.
Until folk reject the idea of paying exorbitant prices for a few inches gain off the tee, Driver costs will continue to be exorbitant/climb. And the 'jacked lofts' fiddle will continue to sell irons at prices many times their production costs - so plenty of profit for big companies and plenty of room at lower levels for other ones.

 

[Backsticks]

Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D Marketing

Your statement is true, my addition probably has a greater impact on their pricing structure.

Yes, where their skill lies in in being leaders in the marketing of the illusion of R&D. Some people do swallow the line that new clubs are better than the previous version. Coming up with illusions of change without actually harming the club is quite difficult. So the more than is done with stripes and colours the better. Even Magnum coloured ones.

They are 'branded' clubs and command a premium, because people have paid for them to be a brand in the first place. Not because they were better and the brand values building on that foundation. Clubs are all smoke and mirrors. Clever smoke and mirrors, but smoke and mirrors none the less. And thats without even going into the 'premium' shaft, or putters for £300.

 

[Backsticks]

i'd say 3 main reasons:
- Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D. They are spending the dosh to design the next generations of clubs - the DTC brands in general piggy back off those designs (e.g. TM P790s have been copied several times)

There hasnt been any new generation of clubs in 15 years. Who many 'improvements' are discarded a few years later ? What they are very good at is aesthetic design. Its a business that is closer to clothing fashion or jewellery than any technical development.

 

[chrisd]

There hasnt been any new generation of clubs in 15 years. Who many 'improvements' are discarded a few years later ? What they are very good at is aesthetic design. Its a business that is closer to clothing fashion or jewellery than any technical development.

Sorry but you're wrong on your main point. I started playing just over 20 years ago and without doubt the clubs of today are definitely easier to hit than they were when I first started out. I agree that aesthetics have helped sell clubs but i can hit a 7 iron 165 yards at 69 years old and I'm definitely hitting easier than when i was 49, even if my technique has improved I'm certain that the tech in a Taylor Made 760 iron is better now then irons and shafts back then. Callaway told me, during a fitting, that a change of driver every year won't show any material change but would if changed around 3 yearly.

 

[GB72]

Controversial point I know but I will add that custom fititng has been the biggest marketing success of recent generations. There may be some gains, I am not a good enough golfer to have a definitive view on that, but what has happened is that manufacturers have now got everyone sold, form the newest beginner to the senior who has been golfing for 50 years, that simply buying a set of clubs is not good enough. What they have done is massively reduced the attractiveness of the second hand market or older models to golfers because off the peg will not work for them. Manufacturers promote something that keeps people buying new clubs and reduces the second hand market that they get no benefit from, strange that.

 

[peld]

There hasnt been any new generation of clubs in 15 years. Who many 'improvements' are discarded a few years later ? What they are very good at is aesthetic design. Its a business that is closer to clothing fashion or jewellery than any technical development.

unless you are a scratch golfer that only plays blades, that statement is just utter rubbish.

I accept that year on year improvements are minimal and often good marketing, but you cannot in any seriousness tell me clubs are not more forgiving and longer than 15 years ago. My old set from about 2007 is nowhere near as good as my current set on any metric, and were similar costs. Drivers have come on leaps and bounds over 15 years - i had an original R7 quad and its not a patch on my current TM M6, nor the Ping G i had before it.

 

[Backsticks]

Sorry but you're wrong on your main point. I started playing just over 20 years ago and without doubt the clubs of today are definitely easier to hit than they were when I first started out. I agree that aesthetics have helped sell clubs but i can hit a 7 iron 165 yards at 69 years old and I'm definitely hitting easier than when i was 49, even if my technique has improved I'm certain that the tech in a Taylor Made 760 iron is better now then irons and shafts back then. Callaway told me, during a fitting, that a change of driver every year won't show any material change but would if changed around 3 yearly.

I think we are agreeing fully are we not? I am agreeing that your clubs today are indeed better than your ones of 20 years ago which is what I wrote. That development though stopped about 15 years ago.

 

[chrisd]

I think we are agreeing fully are we not? I am agreeing that your clubs today are indeed better than your ones of 20 years ago which is what I wrote. That development though stopped about 15 years ago.

What I think I read was that they are better aesthetically but have no better technology. If that is what you wrote that is what I disagree with.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Brands like TM, Callaway, Titleist are the leaders in R&D Marketing

Your statement is true, my addition probably has a greater impact on their pricing structure.

Yes, I think it's both.

My view is that there have been marginal gains rather than step changes over the last 15 years or so and I'm certain clubs are more forgiving than they were 15 years ago.

The manufacturers with the biggest marketing budget do also have the biggest R&D budget, so my view is that what innovation there is, even if it only is marginal gains, is likely to come from one of the big guns.

Whether the price of the new gear is one that is worth paying is a question for the individual concerned. I've got a TM R15 driver, but I'm starting to think that the time might have come to move to something a bit newer (maybe not a new release, unless something game changing comes along....).

When it comes down to it though, it's these equipment manufacturers that drive a huge amount of the golf industry, not sure that we would have a golf monthly forum to comment on if they weren't around with their marketing budgets to buy advertising space in the magazine!

 

[The Fader]

Major brand equipment pricing is a stunning triumph of image over substance. If people refused to pay £500 for a driver, the next new release prices would drop to reflect the market.

A few thoughts in no particular order:

Has the average club handicap dropped over recent years with all the enhanced club technology?
Does piggy backing on another companies R&D affect the performance of the DTC club? It doesn't know who's technology it is!
Do you really think you get the same piece of equipment as the Rory's, DJ's, Rahm's of this world?
Club heads of OEM'S and DTC brands are likely made in the same factory in China (as mentioned earlier)
Has anyone who has bought DTC clubs regretted it? I know I haven't.
Does re-sale value really matter that much when you've paid hundreds of ££'s less at the outset?
My BiL who was in the industry reckoned at least 50% of the Major OEM's club's price went to cover pro endorsements

That said, it's your money - how you spend it is up to you.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Reading some of the suggestions on the Bargains thread had me looking up the independent or direct to consumer brands like Sub70, Takomo, PXG, etc. For irons, their reviews seem very positive and they have decent choice of styles and shafts (maybe not much left handed). Yet their pricing is a fraction of the major OEMs - even PXG is competitive. I just don't get how the other brands can continue raising pricing as high as they are when there is clearly new cheaper competition for the majority of golfers. It can't be input and raw material costs as this would crush the smaller guys too if they're keeping their end prices low. And I would have thought lockdowns have meant the average consumer is much more comfortable buying physical goods online now than before when you might need to feel something like a club in your hands first.

Yet I feel like I'm the dummy, cause clearly the major brands are being very successful at raising prices. Maybe it requires a 2nd hand market to develop for the independent smaller guys before more people will switch to them so they can see if value is retained? Or a longer track record of quality and after sales service?

Surely nobody buys golf clubs without having tried them if they are in any way a regular golfer?

 

[GB72]

Surely nobody buys golf clubs without having tried them if they are in any way a regular golfer?

I have, saw a set of ex demo Wilson Staff irons on Snainton Golf website at a ridiculous price so bought them and was using them until I took a break from the game a couple of years ago.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I have, saw a set of ex demo Wilson Staff irons on Snainton Golf website at a ridiculous price so bought them and was using them until I took a break from the game a couple of years ago.

Why? Worth the risk of them being no good cos of low price?

 

[peld]

Surely nobody buys golf clubs without having tried them if they are in any way a regular golfer?

yup i bought my Sub70 irons without hitting them. dont regret it and still playing well a year on (and since bought another hybrid and utility iron from them)

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Why? Worth the risk of them being no good cos of low price?

I bought a set of Srixon Z565 irons on ebay when i needed a new set a few years ago. I had tried both the 745 and 545 in the past, but not with the shaft that the set I was buying came with.

I think I paid about £250, which was an absolute bargain, so was willing to take the risk, also safe in the knowledge that I'm not someone that blames the equipment so would be willing to take the time to work on hitting them well if required. As it turns out, I've loved them from the outset.