Drop zones in ridiculously generous places

[IanMcC]

The Hotchkin is at the extremes of bunkering, so isn't a particularly useful example, but even so there is much more to the course than just bunkers.

The answers many (most) amateurs would give to a lot of questions about how they might score from various situations would bear little relation to their actual results. Whether playing from a greenside bunker or from a drop outside of a greenside bunker, their average scores will be very similar, regardless of what they think they might do. Add to that how few bunkers get visited in the average round of golf, and the difference in scoring is minimal.

If I was to read this thread in isolation from the rest of the forum, I would seriously wonder if you even played the game.

 

[D-S]

Whether playing from a greenside bunker or from a drop outside of a greenside bunker, their average scores will be very similar, regardless of what they think they might do. Add to that how few bunkers get visited in the average round of golf, and the difference in scoring is minimal.

I’d be interested to see the stats around this minimal difference in scoring, where did you get them?

I assume then they must have examined courses with bunkers all out of play vs in play, as it is not all about number of bunkers visited in a typical round as the ability to drop out of fairway and greenside bunkers significantly alters strategy as well.

 

[clubchamp98]

If I was to read this thread in isolation from the rest of the forum, I would seriously wonder if you even played the game.

Agree it’s where stats tell you one thing but golf is not played on paper.

 

[wjemather]

I’d be interested to see the stats around this minimal difference in scoring, where did you get them?

I assume then they must have examined courses with bunkers all out of play vs in play, as it is not all about number of bunkers visited in a typical round as the ability to drop out of fairway and greenside bunkers significantly alters strategy as well.

As a course rater, I assume you have access to all relevant materials, so should be able to demonstrate the difference for yourself.

It's easy to grossly overstate the influence on strategy and it's effect on scoring.

 

[Backache]

My understanding is from Arcoss strokes being in a green side bunker versus the rough costs around 0.3 strokes for most amateur golfers but being in a fairway bunker from the tee is a lot more penal as the handicap rises costing nearly a stroke for higher handicappers.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

And of course it doesn't mean that the whole bunker is flooded, only that there isn't anywhere that legitimate relief is not available.
A lot of courses/clubs deem them out of play just because there is some water in them.

We have a problem with several of our fairway bunkers that slope away from the green. Thus when there is standing water it's at the end farthest from the green and there is nowhere to drop no nearer the hole.

 

[rulefan]

We have a problem with several of our fairway bunkers that slope away from the green. Thus when there is standing water it's at the end farthest from the green and there is nowhere to drop no nearer the hole.

Isn't that design/construction problem?

 

[salfordlad]

We have a problem with several of our fairway bunkers that slope away from the green. Thus when there is standing water it's at the end farthest from the green and there is nowhere to drop no nearer the hole.

That's an advanced form of club/Committee failure. It's fundamentally a design/construct flaw and correcting that is the only route to making the bunker function in the way it is supposed to.

Meantime, the Rules offer play as lies (ie get wet); take maximum available relief in the bunker, if available (ie get wet); or take penalty relief outside the bunker. Hopefully, the Committee folk get a disproportionate share of this experience.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Isn't that design/construction problem?

Yes - absolutely.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

That's an advanced form of club/Committee failure. It's fundamentally a design/construct flaw and correcting that is the only route to making the bunker function in the way it is supposed to.

Meantime, the Rules offer play as lies (ie get wet); take maximum available relief in the bunker, if available (ie get wet); or take penalty relief outside the bunker. Hopefully, the Committee folk get a disproportionate share of this experience.

We are a privately owned club that has lots of bunkers and hence the problem is neither simple or cheap to rectify.

 

[D-S]

In the case cited above the bunker is not completely filled with water only partially, but players “may be limited to taking maximum available relief or relief outside the bunker for one penalty stroke.”
How is ‘filled’ defined in F-16 (extract below) or in this case could you declare that bunker as GUR?

“If a bunker or multiple bunkers are filled with temporary water, free relief under Rule 16.1c may not be sufficient to allow for fair play as players may be limited to taking maximum available relief or relief outside the bunker for one penalty stroke. A Committee can choose to treat certain bunkers as ground under repair in the general area so that free relief is allowed outside the bunker.”

 

[rulie]

Note that F-16 also says,
"The Committee should only use this Local Rule for specifically identified bunkers and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all bunkers filled with temporary water are ground under repair. The rationale for this is that individual bunkers may change from being completely flooded to partially flooded during the round, and it would be inappropriate for some players to get free relief from a bunker treated as ground under repair in the general area, whereas other players have to treat it as a bunker as it is not completely flooded at the time their ball is in it."

This would seem to provide a distinction between bunkers containing some temporary water and bunkers that are "completely filled".

 

[rulefan]

Note that F-16 also says,
"The Committee should only use this Local Rule for specifically identified bunkers and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all bunkers filled with temporary water are ground under repair. The rationale for this is that individual bunkers may change from being completely flooded to partially flooded during the round, and it would be inappropriate for some players to get free relief from a bunker treated as ground under repair in the general area, whereas other players have to treat it as a bunker as it is not completely flooded at the time their ball is in it."

This would seem to provide a distinction between bunkers containing some temporary water and bunkers that are "completely filled".

Referees and Committees have to be very careful when considering this if bunkers are drying out during a long round.

 

[jim8flog]

Isn't that design/construction problem?

We have a similar problem with several of our bunkers. It is very hilly course, with bunkers being sloped often from back of the green to front or lowest point being furthest away from the green. The problem could not be resolved by either design of construction in my opinion.

The only way we got rid of the problem one hole was to get rid of the bunker.

 

[rulie]

Yes - absolutely.

Install drainage in those bunkers?
We're re-doing several bunkers on our course this fall and includes drainage systems.

 

[D-S]

Note that F-16 also says,
"The Committee should only use this Local Rule for specifically identified bunkers and is not authorized to make a Local Rule providing generally that all bunkers filled with temporary water are ground under repair. The rationale for this is that individual bunkers may change from being completely flooded to partially flooded during the round, and it would be inappropriate for some players to get free relief from a bunker treated as ground under repair in the general area, whereas other players have to treat it as a bunker as it is not completely flooded at the time their ball is in it."

This would seem to provide a distinction between bunkers containing some temporary water and bunkers that are "completely filled".

Thanks for this, however I can’t imagine a bunker that is completely filled with water, there will always be some sand visible.

I assume that filled means that it has beeen assessed that the sand visible is not sufficient for ‘sensible’ relief to be taken or that the visible sand is so sloping that a ball cannot come to rest on it?

 

[rulie]

Thanks for this, however I can’t imagine a bunker that is completely filled with water, there will always be some sand visible.

I assume that filled means that it has beeen assessed that the sand visible is not sufficient for ‘sensible’ relief to be taken or that the visible sand is so sloping that a ball cannot come to rest on it?

Might be a correct assumption, might not?

 

[clubchamp98]

We have a similar problem with several of our bunkers. It is very hilly course, with bunkers being sloped often from back of the green to front or lowest point being furthest away from the green. The problem could not be resolved by either design of construction in my opinion.

The only way we got rid of the problem one hole was to get rid of the bunker.

Most bunkers imo are just holes in the ground .
Years old and little thought put into them.
So going to hold water.

The lowest part of a bunker should be level with the surrounding area and the front and sides built up.
This stops the water filling the bunker.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Install drainage in those bunkers?
We're re-doing several bunkers on our course this fall and includes drainage systems.

We have a winter program underway but unfortunately several have been put at low points and so it's difficult to know how they can drain them to anywhere suitable.

 

[jim8flog]

Most bunkers imo are just holes in the ground .
Years old and little thought put into them.
So going to hold water.

The lowest part of a bunker should be level with the surrounding area and the front and sides built up.
This stops the water filling the bunker.

And if the surrounding area is lower than the bunker........... (as is the case with many of our bunkers).