Drive for Dough???

[Griffsters]

Conversely Sam Burns is also the 9th best putter on the whole of the PGA Tour for 2021.

As has already been said, a sample size of one proves nothing.

The data doesn’t lie, but you can choose not to listen if you want?

As well as Mark Broadie, check out Scott Fawcett and Lou Stagner- their sample size is slightly bigger than one ?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Always thought the driver was the most important shot of the hole but was told by a teaching pro that the 3rd shot is, its either a putt or a chip near to the hole, probably psychological mind.

It might be the third shot for the Pro, but if you drive badly the third shot is either off the tee, or at the side of a lake or bush etc?

 

[sweaty sock]

They're also talking about gaining fractions of a shot each round.

If your scoring between 90 and 100, its too early to be splitting hairs. Get lessons, get the fundamentals right, understand the swing and ball flight. Worry about strokes gained stats another day.

 

[Jimaroid]

The data doesn’t lie, but you can choose not to listen if you want?

The strokes gained formulae use baselines from PGA Tour player probabilities of likely score over distance. It doesn’t transform linearly to amateurs but you can choose not to understand if you want.
?

 

[harpo_72]

I worked on my driving, I needed 230 yard carry minimum to get past the bunkers which are very deep for fairway bunkers. Has it made a difference, yes it has, my chipping is abysmal almost yippie but I practice my 8ft putts regularly and I sink a lot of them as a consequence… think you just have to look at your game and think what can I do better and what should I improve to take the pressure of these parts of my game.
210 is good number 7 iron is possibly 150 ish ..that’s 360 with no effort 1 shot a hole should be pretty straight forward provided you make the correct on course decisions and not short side yourself

 

[sunshine]

It's no coincidence that the top golfers are all bombers. And maxing out driving distance is their key priority. None of the OWGR top 20 are "shorter" hitters.

They are looking to improve their proximity to the hole stat in order to increase birdie putts. PGA Tour stats have shown that proximity to the hole improves as the approach distance reduces, regardless of whether the approach is from the fairway or the rough.

Translating it to my game, in most cases I would rather be hitting a PW from the rough than an 8 iron from the fairway (or worse from the rough as well). So the key factor to scoring well is driving it long and straight-ish. A little bit wide of the fairway is ok, but no big misses in the trees.

 

[Bamberdele21]

I will often hit fairways pushing the 300 yd barrier. I will still double bogey + the holes.

Short, approach and putting are far more important.

 

[azazel]

Tour pros hitting it miles long and miles wide is all well and good when they've a crowd of people trampling down the rough and ball spotters finding it for them even in the worst of conditions. Try hitting it 40 yards wide at Machrihanish and see how quickly your score mounts up. Short and straight in "recreational" golf will almost always beat long and wild in normal strokeplay.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Tour pros hitting it miles long and miles wide is all well and good when they've a crowd of people trampling down the rough and ball spotters finding it for them even in the worst of conditions. Try hitting it 40 yards wide at Machrihanish and see how quickly your score mounts up. Short and straight in "recreational" golf will almost always beat long and wild in normal strokeplay.

Nobody is advocating long and wild.

Some are just trying to point out that the thinking behind putting being more important than driving is not correct. Its no better than an old wives tale. Yet is often trotted out time and time again and presented as an irrefutable fact.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

My uncle who was an SGU coach always said that the 3rd shot was always the most important one in golf.
His father [my papa] used to say ....'play wi the heid son it's the best wood in the bag'.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It's no coincidence that the top golfers are all bombers. And maxing out driving distance is their key priority. None of the OWGR top 20 are "shorter" hitters.

They are looking to improve their proximity to the hole stat in order to increase birdie putts. PGA Tour stats have shown that proximity to the hole improves as the approach distance reduces, regardless of whether the approach is from the fairway or the rough.

Translating it to my game, in most cases I would rather be hitting a PW from the rough than an 8 iron from the fairway (or worse from the rough as well). So the key factor to scoring well is driving it long and straight-ish. A little bit wide of the fairway is ok, but no big misses in the trees.

Yes, I take your point and agree that it works on the PGA tour. But....looking at the courses they play , they seem to all have few bushes , etc and spots where penalty drops would be required. The rough isn't too bad and if amongst trees, the trees are mostly big with lowest branches permitting a full swing under them.
Try going "off piste" on our course and you are in gorse bushes and all sorts of nasties?
However, I still agree that if you drive well, you are set up for the next shots.
You can putt like God, but not much use if you take 5 or 6 to get to the green.

 

[HowlingGale]

The strokes gained formulae use baselines from PGA Tour player probabilities of likely score over distance. It doesn’t transform linearly to amateurs but you can choose not to understand if you want.
?

Strokes gained was first set up for amateurs and taken up in a big way by the PGA tour because it was so good. There is an abundance of data for amateur golfers.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

My uncle who was an SGU coach always said that the 3rd shot was always the most important one in golf.
His father [my papa] used to say ....'play wi the heid son it's the best wood in the bag'.

Out od interest, why was the 3rd shot considered the most important?

What if the 3rd shot was off the tee, or a drop?

Like I said. Many of these long standing thoughts and sayings are being debunked. But many "experienced" golfers don't like, or are unwilling to accept change.

Playing with your head is sound advice. Unlike keeping your head down, or keeping it still ?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Yes, I take your point and agree that it works on the PGA tour. But....looking at the courses they play , they seem to all have few bushes , etc and spots where penalty drops would be required. The rough isn't too bad and if amongst trees, the trees are mostly big with lowest branches permitting a full swing under them.
Try going "off piste" on our course and you are in gorse bushes and all sorts of nasties?
However, I still agree that if you drive well, you are set up for the next shots.
You can putt like God, but not much use if you take 5 or 6 to get to the green.

They are also better at recovery shots so getting round, under, over trees is less expensive for them than it is for higher handicap players.

The thing with chipping and (especially) putting, is that it's relatively low hanging fruit in terms of the picking part of the game to reduce your score by.

I bought a putting mat and putted a minimum of

* 5 balls
* 5 times a day = 25 putts a day
* 175 putts a week
* 700 a month.

I now feel like I can make anything inside 12 feet and those 5 foot knee knockers, no problem. I don't make them all of course, but the difference is substantial, especially in confidence. It also takes pressure off the other parts of my game, which conversely makes the other parts of the game better.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Nobody is advocating long and wild.

Some are just trying to point out that the thinking behind putting being more important than driving is not correct. Its no better than an old wives tale. Yet is often trotted out time and time again and presented as an irrefutable fact.

I think I said before on here that the top players are generally not the best putters. They just hit the ball longer and generally closer whilst having a few weeks each season where they hit a putting streak and win.

 

[sunshine]

I think I said before on here that the top players are generally not the best putters. They just hit the ball longer and generally closer whilst having a few weeks each season where they hit a putting streak and win.

If they are hitting it longer and closer they are giving themselves more makeable birdie putts. Over the course of the week an average putter is going to make more birdies from 15 feet than an excellent putter from 30 feet.

 

[sunshine]

My uncle who was an SGU coach always said that the 3rd shot was always the most important one in golf.
His father [my papa] used to say ....'play wi the heid son it's the best wood in the bag'.

I don't really understand this - why is the 3rd shot the most important?

On a par 3, surely the first shot is the most important?

Although if you asked me what was the most important shot in golf, I would say "the next one".

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I think I said before on here that the top players are generally not the best putters. They just hit the ball longer and generally closer whilst having a few weeks each season where they hit a putting streak and win.

Tee to green is king.

John Rahm is 2nd in SG Driving and number 1 in the world. The 2nd best putter last season on tbe PGA Tour is 130 in the world.
Rahm is also only 42nd in SG around the green. But 8th in approach play.

J T Poston


Rahm

 

[Jimaroid]

Strokes gained was first set up for amateurs and taken up in a big way by the PGA tour because it was so good. There is an abundance of data for amateur golfers.

I didn’t say that wasn’t the case. Let me try to explain my thinking again.

One of Broadie’s papers from the time showed that against accepted opinion Tiger’s main advantage over the field wasn’t his short game. Tiger gained about 3 shots on the field overall; 1 shot gained from short game (0.7 from putting alone) and the other 2 shots from over 150 yards, and it wasn’t just off the tee.

3 shots over the field was and still is a remarkable stat. It did/does show that being a longer hitter provided him a massive advantage in that field.

It also showed that the field was pretty much as good as Tiger putting and this is where I believe the thinking is wrong as it’s perhaps a form of survivorship bias. Bad players and bad putters can’t survive the PGA Tour and I think the data illustrates that because the variance gets so small and consistent towards that 50/50 chance from 8 feet measure. It suggests this might be the plateau of natural human ability and there’s nothing that can be improved on.

To score we will always need to putt out, and if the pros are now consistently showing there isn’t much to be gained but a lot to be lost, it means there is a minimum ability you need to meet. Therefore I think it’s incorrect to say we have to be better driver than a putter. It’s more accurate to say we need to be as good as the best putters on the planet and also hit the ball further for a marginal gain in probabilities against them. Like him or not, that’s Bryson, he’s playing the game of probabilities and marginal gains with some success.

Don’t get me wrong, Strokes Gained is an interesting system. I just don’t agree that what it demonstrates on the PGA Tour applies to what we could do better in a saturday roll-up. Quite simply more amateurs would benefit from a better short game than they would from being longer off the tee.

 

[Griffsters]

The strokes gained formulae use baselines from PGA Tour player probabilities of likely score over distance. It doesn’t transform linearly to amateurs but you can choose not to understand if you want.
?

Love this forum, I really do Just like being in your average clubhouse