Draw or Fade!

[richart]

If you set up with club square and aim slightly to the right,and swing down the line, the shot will start slightly right and draw back to the target.Not sure if you are suggesting it will start on target and move 5 yards left ?

If your body is aimed right and your clubface is aimed at the target then (all things remaining equal) you are going to draw it to the left of your target.

It's going to start almost bang on at the flag (where it's pointing) with added draw spin... taking it left.

You might well look up and say "Damn, pulled it"

Nope ,it will start right and draw back to flag. I am assuming you swing on line of body and not pull across. Read 'Pure Golf' by Johnny Miller if you don't believe me.

 

[JustOne]

Ok, imagine you are lined up straight at the flag, body and swing path... close the face by 5° so it's aiming left by 5 yards... where's the ball going if you hit it?

If you swing down the line the ball will go left, that is where the club is aiming... it will also have drawspin, so go even further left.


Now turn the WHOLE THING a bit to the right, that ball is still going left. Nothing has changed, you've turned the whole thing to the right a bit and the clubface now points at the target (as you said) but the ball flight remains the same. It's going left of your aim, with draw spin.

The only way you are going to make that ball land on the target is if you aim about 20+ yards right... even so you are still basically PULLING it to the left.

Johhny Miller was back in the day before ultra slow mo and trackman showed us what is really going on with the ball flights.

 

[SharkAttack]

I use the aim the clubface at target and your body where you want the ball to start, then swing normally along your feet line method. Read about it in Greg Norman and Nick Faldo's books many moon's ago and have used that method since.

In the word's of the great Lee Trevino "You can talk to a fade but a hook doesn't listen"

 

[JustOne]

I use the aim the clubface at target and your body where you want the ball to start, then swing normally along your feet line method. Read about it in Greg Norman and Nick Faldo's books many moon's ago and have used that method since.

I used to do that too until I read about how to do it properly...which I am TRYING to share with you.

No worries... I have a cuppa to be getting on with

Here you go...
http://thesandtrap.com/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

which includes the line...
"Nick Faldo in the process of giving advice that's clearly based on the old - and very much wrong - ball flight laws."

 

[SharkAttack]

Ok, imagine you are lined up straight at the flag, body and swing path... close the face by 5° so it's aiming left by 5 yards... where's the ball going if you hit it?

If you swing down the line the ball will go left, that is where the club is aiming... it will also have drawspin, so go even further left.


Now turn the WHOLE THING a bit to the right, that ball is still going left. Nothing has changed, you've turned the whole thing to the right a bit and the clubface now points at the target (as you said) but the ball flight remains the same. It's going left of your aim, with draw spin.

The only way you are going to make that ball land on the target is if you aim about 20+ yards right... even so you are still basically PULLING it to the left.

Johhny Miller was back in the day before ultra slow mo and trackman showed us what is really going on with the ball flights.

Surely this is presuming you are swinging straight down the line. A golf swing comes from the inside and the clubface is rotating, so if you use this method would you not be attacking more from the inside pushing the ball right and the closed face will impart the side spin to bring the ball back on line.

I may be wrong but hey it works for Greg, Nick & me and three greater golfing gods you won't find .

 

[mjsw13]

Developed a fade early last year and thought the shot shape looked ugly / lost distance, so read a few things on here by BOBMAC, learned the draw, and that's now my natural shot. Looks way nicer and bounces much farther.

Recently however, with West Cornwall being such a windy course, I've realised the need for a fade on a few holes, dependant on wind direction, so I've worked on producing a fade when required. I have to say it's not working out too bad, just alter my stance / aim, open the face a bit and try backswininging slightly more 'out'. All good so far, and hopefully long may it continue.

Enjoy your golf this weekend folks

 

[JustOne]

so if you use this method would you not be attacking more from the inside pushing the ball right and the closed face will impart the side spin to bring the ball back on line.

No, the ball starts left instantly as it bounces off the clubface, residual spin is imparted as the club is swiping across the ball, hope that makes sense... it's all in the link I posted above. If you manipulate the swingpath enough..(swinging from the inside) so that the face actually points to the RIGHT of the target at impact then YES you will hit a proper push-draw that starts RIGHT and curves back in.... but that not is what is being discussed. That is totally different from aiming right and hitting down the line,... Yes, I know... it's confusing.

"If Nick subconsciously manipulated both the clubface angle and the swing path to produce b, he'd start the ball to the right of the tree and hook it back towards the target - the shot he wants to play."

I may be wrong but hey it works for Greg, Nick & me and three greater golfing gods you won't find .

What they said and what they were actually doing were two diferent things, they said it how they THOUGHT they were doing it, a bit like Nicklaus used to say that he was over his right hip when in fact pictures show that he wasn't.

Like I said... read the facts in the link above. They wrote it better than I can

What you read in that link is HOW IT'S DONE, physics has proved it, there is no other way.

 

[JustOne]

As far as I'm concerned there are 3 shots to worry about, in this picture they are E, C & G. The reason for that it that they are the 3 flights that arrive AT the target. If you want to play good golf then these are crucial to learn...even if you only learn ONE OF THEM.

Push-draw, pull-fade or straight.

You might occasionally want to hit D or F, or at least a mild version of them. But that's once you master ONE of the others that lands near the flag.

One shot, one shape.... find out how to hit it by reading, listening and watching, you'll play much better.

 

[SharkAttack]

I use the aim the clubface at target and your body where you want the ball to start, then swing normally along your feet line method. Read about it in Greg Norman and Nick Faldo's books many moon's ago and have used that method since.

I used to do that too until I read about how to do it properly...which I am TRYING to share with you.

No worries... I have a cuppa to be getting on with

Here you go...
http://thesandtrap.com/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

which includes the line...
"Nick Faldo in the process of giving advice that's clearly based on the old - and very much wrong - ball flight laws."

I have read the link now and it seems to be saying for a draw aim the clubface almost where you want the ball to start and attack the ball from the inside. Which is pretty much my method but aiming body and clubface slightly farther right. Maybe that is what I have been doing and not realised it.

 

[haplesshacker]

I'm wondering if there is some confusion over terminology here.

Or am I the only one who would call a draw and a fade, where by the ball starts out right and left respectivly,but land at the intended area as if you'd played a straight shot?

A draw is now known as a push draw, and a fade is now known as a pull fade? As per the diagram above.

I do agree with that we think that we're doing one thing and probably do another. Even sub-conciously. Which is where the importance of lessons and video / pictures come in.

For example. I think that my clubface is square to target, but because of my in to out swing, I get a hook. Closed clubace at impact and left spin is imparted on the ball at contact. Where-as if a have what I think is an open clubface (minutely) at address, therefore I can only assume that it's slightly open or square at impact, and with my usual swing path of in to out, then I get a draw. Unless my hands get to far ahead of the ball at impact, the clubface does not square up, so remains open, and I get a very high push fade or straight fade.

And that's before we get onto feet position at set up! Gee it's complicated!

Interesting thread though.

Though I do like the diagram above. No mention of a hook or slice. How very kind!

 

[JustOne]

I have read the link now and it seems to be saying for a draw aim the clubface almost where you want the ball to start and attack the ball from the inside. Which is pretty much my method but aiming body and clubface slightly farther right. Maybe that is what I have been doing and not realised it.

I can't say whether that is the case of not, but your explaination is correct..... as is mine. Aim the CLUBFACE slightly to the right and attack from the inside...at no point does it suggest that you aim the club at the target....which is what youself and Richart are trying to advocate.


It's very easy to understand...
If you want the ball to start 20yrds left then aim the CLUBFACE 20yards left!, if you want it to then curve to the right back to the target you need to impart sidespin, so you're going to need to cut across the line of the CLUBFACE, getting some spin on it. At no point does the clubface point at the target.. even though the ball ends up there.

Well I think it's very easy to understand



The beauty of it is in the diagnosis of a bad shot, let's say you hit the ball left but it appears to draw into the trees... you know you had the clubface pointing left as that's where it started, you also know that your swingpath imparted DRAW SPIN as you could see the curve.

Change your swingpath to cut across the line of the clubface and you can get that otherwise lost ball to fade back into play next time... (provided you know how to change your swingpath, ball position, weight shift, grip strength etc etc.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[viscount17]

I was trying to hit fades with my irons last night - not a hope - I can push it straight left but that's it.
(There is a reason for this. Tuesday I was faced with a number of greens where coming in from the right meant drawing across bunkers, the more open side, and in a couple of cases into the slope, was from the left. Fortunately I made 3 out of 4 of them.)

my 'natural' shot seems to be a pull more than a draw - I'm half convinced 4.5 Rifles are a bit too soft so are promoting this.

 

[Ethan]

Teaching on this has changed. In the old days, traditional advice was that the ball flight would start along the swing path and move towards where the clubface was pointing. Hence aim clubface at target and swing in to out for a draw and out to in for a fade.

More recently, the advice has changed that the clubface orientation determines initial ball flight, not swing path. This is based on lots of technology and measurement, so being a scientist and all, I tend to believe it.

 

[JustOne]

For example. I think that my clubface is square to target, but because of my in to out swing, I get a hook. Closed clubace at impact and left spin is imparted on the ball at contact. Where-as if a have what I think is an open clubface (minutely) at address, therefore I can only assume that it's slightly open or square at impact, and with my usual swing path of in to out, then I get a draw. Unless my hands get to far ahead of the ball at impact, the clubface does not square up, so remains open, and I get a very high push fade or straight fade.

I find the easiest way to describe a push-draw (a shot that returns to the target..ie: lands by the flag) is this....

Aim your target line at the flag and stand square to it.
Aim your clubface 10 feet to the right.
Try and hit your ball into the bunker to the right of the green.

That gives you the right alignment, the right clubface position and the right swingpath direction.

Making it happen is the hard part...but basically that's ALL you have to learn, just that... it doesn't take rocket science but we like to complicate things as much as possible and swap a lot of WRONG and contradictory information from people who are MIS-INFORMED.

Before you know it we'll all be shifting our weight to the right on the backswing........ aaarrrrghhhhhhh!!!!

 

[JustOne]

Seeing as we now know that the direction of the clubface dictates where the ball starts and the swingpath dictates the direction of imparted spin... it does make you wonder what getting a lesson with your pro for the past 20 years has meant..that's right,..... it was all the wrong way around

We were all trying to hit push-draws with the clubface pointing at the target, only the guys who couldn't actually get the clubface to point at the target and left it pointing a bit right were the ones who could actually hit a push-draw!! the rest of us (the ones who COULD square the clubface) have been hitting standard draws that go left or hooks!...and then getting a lesson to fix those too!!!!

Ack!.. now you've got me started.... best I turn my PC off and go practice my putting

 

[SharkAttack]

I agree with the new method now that I have read it. I think the old method was easier to execute and explain. Aim where you want the ball to start and take a normal swing, the clubface will either be open or closed due to it being aimed at the target. There is no attack from the inside or outside to think about as the normal swing will be across the ball due to you aiming right/left of target.

Surely the new method should have been described in this simple manor (Which I think was the reason for describing it the way they did). There does not seem to be any method for helping you hit the correct ammount of cut/hook it just explains how you should hit the shot or tell how you have went wrong.

Everyone should have a standard shot and only play another shot when they have to (Cross wind or something in your way) That makes your game so much easier.

 

[JustOne]

You can stick with your old method if you want... provided you understand what is actually happening....and rely on your subconscious to make your hands do the right thing.
You should recognise that a draw isn't the same as a push-draw though. Aiming right and pulling the ball left isn't the same as hitting the ball right and it curving back.

They used to say AIM THE CLUB FACE where you want to ball to finish... try it next time you need to hit around a tree.

Personally I aim to the clubface to the right of the tree, then try and hit the ball even futher right than the clubface is pointing and watch it hook effortlessly around the tree towards the green... in theory yours should just whack against the tree unless you magically manipulate the club during your swing.... known as the HARD WAY LOL

Have a good day mate... I hope I've helped your game today.

James.

 

[Region3]

JustOneUK, when you say aim the clubface 10' to the right of the pin then try to hit the ball at the right-hand bunker, are you saying you should still align feet/body/shoulders to the flag and manipulate the swing, or do you align them to the right bunker and swing normally?

 

[SharkAttack]

They used to say AIM THE CLUB FACE where you want to ball to finish... try it next time you need to hit around a tree.

As I said I agree with what is said. It is just how it is said. I obviously don't fully release the club when hitting the draw/hook and never hit the tree (I know that's just tempting fate) and vice versa for a fade/cut.

I will stop aiming at the target though as what has been said makes sense.

 

[JustOne]

JustOneUK, when you say aim the clubface 10' to the right of the pin then try to hit the ball at the right-hand bunker, are you saying you should still align feet/body/shoulders to the flag and manipulate the swing, or do you align them to the right bunker and swing normally?

Align at the flag. It's a constant..then you'll know you are always correctly aligned. the more things you can guarantee the more consistent your game will be. Poor alignment has caused many a poor shot.

I'd say 10 feet right would be correct for approximately a 7-iron distance to allow it time for the ball to curve back in.

If you are hitting the ball correctly (moving your weight properly,correct ball position etc) then you'll hit a nice push-draw that starts RIGHT of the 150 and curves back in. It might help to have the ball a fraction further back in your stance if you are prone to shifting too much weight to your right side... other than that it's a case of trying it at the range and see what happens...

Align your body square to the target line at the 150yd marker... point the clubface 10feet right...try to hit the ball 30feet right.... slow/meduim swings to start with.

If the ball goes 30 feet right then you have OPENED the clubface...it was only pointed 10 feet right - does that make sense? Roll the ball back an inch and try again or press the hands forward and try again.

Hope this helps. It should as it's the way it's supposed to be done

Yes, some people close their stance a fraction as it helps them to hit from the inside...but that's a variable that comes with knowledge and practice. There are pro's who have strong grips/weak grips/open stances/closed stances..these are all variables.. the way the ball reacts off the clubface is a constant. If you follow the principles it will work..that's physics for you. You can hit a nice draw with an open stance if you are able to get the clubface open 10feet to the target and stillget your swingpath to hit the ball 30feet right...you can probably do it on one leg.