Draw or Fade!

[JustOne]

They used to say AIM THE CLUB FACE where you want to ball to finish... try it next time you need to hit around a tree.

As I said I agree with what is said. It is just how it is said. I obviously don't fully release the club when hitting the draw/hook and never hit the tree (I know that's just tempting fate) and vice versa for a fade/cut.

Bingo! Great to hear it. I know what you mean about not 'releasing the club'..you kind of panic and end up poking it right. This way you can commit to it and hit it damn hard mate..no lie. You need to hook a big one round a tree like they do on tele? ...go for it. It does work.

Yesterday I needed to do the opposite...hit a big raking pull-fade from 240yds with a 3-wood.

I lined the clubface up at the bunker on the left of the green and did my utmost to hit the ball into the lake that was a further 30yds left, I really was trying to lash the ball into the lake but the ball started perfectly just to the left of the bunker (where the clubface was aligned) and faded back in by 20 feet straight up the green....stopping 8 feet from the pin and I missed the eagle putt - don't tell anyone I missed it though

Enjoy practicing this.. note: I did cheat a little by opening my stance 5° just to help me really get that swingpath heading for the lake... it probably reduced the sidespin (fade shape) by 5 feet...but ended up perfect.

 

[JustOne]

Cheers Bob... love yoooooooo







Here's a post I did last night in a different thread...it's the same principle but with a pull-fade instead of a push-draw..... it's basically as described above, my 3-wood shot that I tried to hit 30yds left.... note how I never mentioned the missed eagle putt.....



Try this pull-fade.... if you're feeling brave/silly/rebellious etc...

Aim your feet, hips, shoulders etc square to the flag.

Aim the CLUBFACE at point A

When you hit the ball try and HIT IT TOWARDS point B, (further left than the clubface is aiming). This should give you the ball flight as shown on the right (starts left of the target towards point A and curves to the right landing on the flag).

If you slice it's either because the clubface is pointing too much AT THE FLAG and not at point A (in which case the ball would start at the flag and move further right finding the trees on the right)

OR

your point B is a little too much to the left (in which case the ball would start at point A but curve too much)

The closer you move your point B towards point A the less curve you will get.

You can experiment with the position of points A and B as you wish, to find something that suits your swing but the name of the game is to have the clubface pointing left of the target (point A) and the swingpath further left (point B) than where the clubface is pointing, thus imparting the required sidespin.

If necessary you can even cheat a little buy opening your stance a few degrees or moving the ball further forward.... but that's advanced stuff LOL

I did this twice today and made birdie both times

Theoretically if you reverse everything I said (eg: swap the points to the right side of the green/fairway, move the ball back and close your stance a fraction) you'll hit a perfect push-draw that starts to the right and curves back in, but it's unlikely if you throw the club over the top (out-to-in) as you do and you'd need to practice getting the club to come to the ball from the inside.... yes, I know... too much information!

hope this helps..........

[/QUOTE]

 

[bobmac]

And for those of you who don't have James's knowledge, here's pictures.
The first picture shows the old school of thought before high speed cameras.
The ball starts off on the line of the path (yellow) but then moves back to the target because of the club face (red)

With the new super slow mo, golf experts then realised that the ball doesn't start on the path line, it's nearer the clubface direction (white line)

Hope this makes it a bit easier to understand for people like Smiffy out there

 

[Region3]

It all makes perfect sense. Whether or not I'll be able to execute it is another thing

There's a range that's close enough for me to go in my lunchbreak so I'll go and try it out in a bit.

 

[JustOne]

Region3 .. if it goes pear shaped just try and remember exactly what the ball flight looked like...where did the ball start, did it curve, if so which way did it curve and by how much...was it high or low.

it doesn't really matter what happens but the more info you can divulge on the ball flight the easier it is to say what's going on.

It's preferable for you to align square, that way we can take alignment out of the equation.

regards...........

 

[jammydodger]

I'll give you a simple tip for getting a fade :-

Stand too close to the ball

 

[richart]

For example. I think that my clubface is square to target, but because of my in to out swing, I get a hook. Closed clubace at impact and left spin is imparted on the ball at contact. Where-as if a have what I think is an open clubface (minutely) at address, therefore I can only assume that it's slightly open or square at impact, and with my usual swing path of in to out, then I get a draw. Unless my hands get to far ahead of the ball at impact, the clubface does not square up, so remains open, and I get a very high push fade or straight fade.

I find the easiest way to describe a push-draw (a shot that returns to the target..ie: lands by the flag) is this....

Aim your target line at the flag and stand square to it.
Aim your clubface 10 feet to the right.
Try and hit your ball into the bunker to the right of the green.

That gives you the right alignment, the right clubface position and the right swingpath direction.

Making it happen is the hard part...but basically that's ALL you have to learn, just that... it doesn't take rocket science but we like to complicate things as much as possible and swap a lot of WRONG and contradictory information from people who are MIS-INFORMED.

Before you know it we'll all be shifting our weight to the right on the backswing........ aaarrrrghhhhhhh!!!!

Have been playing draws and fades the same way for over 30 years and have never hit that tree in front of me yet. Swing,brain, must be correcting me each time, and as it ain't broke i'm not going to mend now.

I assume i will have to serve a forum ban for giving 'WRONG' and 'MIS-INFORMED' advice. At least it means i will not have to read about stack and tilt !!

 

[Region3]

I'm usually standing too close to the ball after I've hit it

Right, had a go a little while ago. It all started off fine with a 7 iron, even though it felt wierd deliberately trying to swing across the line one way or the other.
The ball was moving. Not necessarily starting on exactly the right line or moving the right amount but the principal was working for me.

After I'd hit a few with a couple of drivers the guy in the shop had kindly taped up for me to try, I went back to the experiment with a 4 iron and it went pear-shaped.
A couple worked, but for the most part the ball was starting where I was trying to hit it and staying straight. I presume that means I was squaring the clubface up to the line of the swing unintentionally?

Much more work needed. I can imagine how I'd feel if I tried to hit a ball towards the cabbage (or water!) and it didn't come back!!

What's the best way to swing across the line? Is there a feeling I should be aiming for?

Sorry for all the questions, I hope this is helping others as well as me.

 

[JustOne]

At least it means i will not have to read about stack and tilt !!

Lucky you!

I was trying to hit it and staying straight. I presume that means I was squaring the clubface up to the line of the swing unintentionally?

That's correct. You may have had the clubface aiming too far right or your swingpath not far enough to the right... 15 feet instead of 30. Whatever the combination both ended up on the same line and you hit straight shots right. It's a good starting position though.

What's the best way to swing across the line? Is there a feeling I should be aiming for?

Do you normally play a fade, draw or straight shot?

It's a little bit more difficult for someone who is used to playing a fade as there is a tendancy to want to cut across the ball and/or fall back off of shots. This is nothing unusual, it's just the way we've been taught.

The best way is to start by exagerating everything a bit like a normal golf drill. Start at the far extreme and work backwards basically.
8-iron positioned literally off the back foot, clubgrip pressed forward so much your hands are by your left pocket and try hitting the ball 20 even 30 yards or more to the right whilst the clubface points only 10-20feet right. Hopefully you'll hit a few bananas which isn't bad if you've never been able to move the ball right to left properly.
At impact your hands should be level with your LEFT pocket with the clubhead trailing back where the ball is... you might shank a few as this position is not easy to start with.... it's a 'feeling' like you said.

If you manage to connect with a few then you can start moving the ball forward inch by inch.

A lot of this is down to practice but the point is that this IS the way to do it. Once you know that it's easy to repeat as you know what's going on. If I need to draw the ball I can aim my setup at the flag, my clubface at the right edge of the green and swing at the trees on the right....as long as I don't let the clubface open then I KNOW it's starting at the edge of the green and curving onto it.

Ball back, grip forward, move the weight through the ball onto the left side through the shot...nice push-draw onto the green.

If you are doing the same for a pull-fade then it's the opposite... clubface at the left of the green, hit the ball at the trees on the left, ball forward, grip stays back, weight back, it should almost slice off to the right then you gradually reel in these positions to make something more 'regular' as you get used to it.

 

[JustOne]

I'll give you a simple tip for getting a fade :-

Stand too close to the ball

That's my recipe for a shank ... not enough space for my hands to get though, they drift away from my body as I unwind and "OOPS! sorry about that, did that hurt? I have a cloth in here somewhere for the blood....."

 

[jammydodger]

It gives you the feeling of having to swing out to in in order for you to get the club back to the ball. This causes a nice fade but may be easier used in playing a half shot rather than a full shot (good for manouevering around a tree )

 

[JustOne]

Yeh, i know .... try and avoid taking your big toe off with the hosel, bunch those shoulders, forget to turn the hips, fall back a bit whilst realising that your now actually standing up bolt straight... watch the ball curve high and to the right on a perfect fade,... step up and make the putt

 

[Region3]

Do you normally play a fade, draw or straight shot?

I try to hit it straight, and if I hit it well that's what happens. I hit bad shots that go both ways.

I can usually hit a fade when I want to, but by opening my stance way up and pointing the club somewhere between that and the target.
I've never been able to hit a draw at will.

Strangely (maybe) I found it more awkward to try to cut across the ball than swing towards the right.

 

[JustOne]

It's actually more natural to hit the ball to the right as the swing is an arc and you have to go past the power threshold (apex) of that arc to hit the ball to the left.

As much as I don't like Americanisms [sp?].. imagine that you are playing baseball but you want to hit the ball to the RIGHT, how do you do that?

Imagine that baseball bat out in front of you, the hands kind of go first whilst you keep the bat at an angle and try to get a 'late hit' of sorts... it's like that.

 

[bobmac]

The trouble is, most mid to high h/caps swing out to in anyway so would find it very difficult to hit it straight or with a push draw.
But for those with a fairly straight swing...
I find the old school teaching to be a good starting point but just allow for a bit more turn. If it's a fade, aim the body left of the left bunker and point the clubface at the bunker.
That way, it should start at the bunker and float nicely onto the green.
That avoids having to try and manipulate the clubface or swing path.

 

[JustOne]

If it's a fade, aim the body left of the left bunker and point the clubface at the bunker.

I'm not entirely sold on that method. Aiming the body left and the clubface at the bunker is basically lining up left and leaking a fade to the right. If you go with the normal fade as you prescribe then there's more chance of the clubface squaring up to the target line and accidentally hitting a straight one to the left of the bunker or in it, or.... perish the thought... rolling it over.

I guess it might depend what you have in front of you and what the danger is. From 100yds and less (as the damage is probably less extreme) the ball movement is less (more accurate) and the swingpath can be straighter as required so I'd go for a normal fade from there... or straight.

Put a 3-wood down to 6 iron in my hand and i'll probably opt for a pull-fade.

 

[richart]

You are Butch Harmon, and i claim my £10

 

[JustOne]

Talking it and walking it are two different things... shank is my usual shape

 

[Ethan]

Aim at a bunker?.

Oh dear me, no.

I go with the hold-off method for the fade. Keep the left hand ahead and restrict the release of the hands.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Seems way too much confusion jere, aiming 10 yards here and moving it 5.6 yards there. Surely its easier to do what the majority of us do naturally and aim at where we're going and then play the next from left or right of our desired line after our n rmal hook/slice