Do Softer Golf Balls Help On Fast Greens?

[sunshine]

Only way is to try out different models and see if you notice a difference. You must find plenty of different balls so just experiment.

No question, a softer ball feels softer off the putter face... but does it behave differently in terms of speed and roll I'm not so sure (just referring to premium balls). You notice the difference with fuller shots as you are imparting more revs on the ball.

 

[Curls]

Fast hard pan greens are tricky to stop the ball on. I get a lot of check even with 30/40 yard pitches (ProV user btw, but as has been said above it is far more to do with technique). However, I know better than to rely on it grabbing when it’s like concrete. Watch the pros when the greens are soft and receptive versus dried out. If they can’t do it, we can’t! So I would offer a different tactic. Firstly, try to stay below the hole, but that’s easier said than done and you will find yourself above it on occasion. If you can remove the fear of that, you can be more confident approaching.

Find a flat piece of practice green and practice putting out of the toe of your putter. You’ll find that to keep it rolling end over end on the straight line you want, you have to give it some welly. Then find a slippery downhiller and practice those. Over and over. A ball won’t substitute for that.

 

[sunshine]

Or putts will go 6 feet and more past the hole if you put a fraction too much on it.

Could it be that this is a confidence issue? It sounds like a fear of the greens has got in your head. In another thread you mention that the slope index at the new club is significantly lower than your old club. If the greens were so fast and tricky then high handicappers would be struggling and the SI would be much higher. Maybe some quality putting practice will help more than new balls?

 

[r0wly86]

I think softer balls are generally lower compression, thinking of some of the Wilson Staff balls. Though they feel nice (to me at least) they won't produce as much spin as a higher compression ball. For instance I found Volvik, felt like hitting a pebble in terms of softness, but checked up like no ball I have ever played with before

Next is the construction of the ball, a urethane will spin more than a surlyn cover.

I am working on the presumption that you are hitting the ball with consistent spin.

For the record I play with Bridgestone BXS, I have found that for me they spin up much more consistently than anything else I have tried

 

[Voyager EMH]

Could it be that this is a confidence issue? It sounds like a fear of the greens has got in your head. In another thread you mention that the slope index at the new club is significantly lower than your old club. If the greens were so fast and tricky then high handicappers would be struggling and the SI would be much higher. Maybe some quality putting practice will help more than new balls?

Now that's interesting. Does anyone know whether the summertime speed of greens and an ensuing difficulty to higher handicappers, which assumes that lower handicappers are better at putting on faster greens, and that this difference is not so great on slower greens, is a factor when the Slope Rating of a course is calculated? Anyone?

 

[sunshine]

Now that's interesting. Does anyone know whether the summertime speed of greens and an ensuing difficulty to higher handicappers, which assumes that lower handicappers are better at putting on faster greens, and that this difference is not so great on slower greens, is a factor when the Slope Rating of a course is calculated? Anyone?

There are experts on this forum who can answer the question better, but my understanding is that the rating should be based on the course presented under "normal conditions"

 

[Orikoru]

There are experts on this forum who can answer the question better, but my understanding is that the rating should be based on the course presented under "normal conditions"

I understand why Haste Hill has the higher slope, because it's a lot tighter off some of the tees, and there's way more dense tree areas to lose your ball in. It's much harder tee to green. But once you're on the green there it's usually a doddle, whereas Grims Dyke greens are hellish. Most are on sideslopes and really fast. So while I understand the difference in slope, I feel like 131 to 117 is too big a difference, and maybe they have overlooked green difficulty slightly in the ratings. Just my own feeling on it anyway.

 

[sunshine]

I understand why Haste Hill has the higher slope, because it's a lot tighter off some of the tees, and there's way more dense tree areas to lose your ball in. It's much harder tee to green. But once you're on the green there it's usually a doddle, whereas Grims Dyke greens are hellish. Most are on sideslopes and really fast. So while I understand the difference in slope, I feel like 131 to 117 is too big a difference, and maybe they have overlooked green difficulty slightly in the ratings. Just my own feeling on it anyway.

Probably have to wait for the experts to explain the weighting in the rating process. I've never played Grims Dyke so have no view on the difficulty.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Found this on GolfShake. Copy and paste...

How are golf courses rated for difficulty?
Does it ever occur to you just why your course has a standard scratch of one under or the reasons for a hole being a certain stroke index? Well there are several steps in these decisions but it is actually quite simple.
First of all you have a USGA Course Rating, otherwise known as a scratch score. This is the evaluation of the difficulty the course has for scratch golfers under normal course and weather conditions.
It is expressed as the number of shots taken by the scratch golfer. The length of the course and the number of obstacles come into account as they affect the scoring difficulty to the scratch golfer.
Then you have a Bogey Rating. The bogey rating is the evaluation of the difficulty the course has for a bogey golfer, a bogey golfer being any golfer with a handicap higher than scratch, under normal course and weather conditions.
Just like the scratch score, the bogey rating takes into account the yardage of the course and the number of obstacles that affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. This evaluation is not used in the calculation of the scratch score.
The Rating Process requires an in depth analysis of holes and takes into account the landing zones of both scratch and bogey golfer. The average drive distance of the scratch and bogey golfer determines the landing zone.
Has your course ever needed to be lengthened or had its standard scratch reduced? This is because when working out the landing zones, corrections need to be made in order to make a hole harder if it is deemed too easy. This can be done by moving the tee back or by adding an obstacle.
There are several Effective Playing Length Factors that need to be taken into account when rating a course. These are Roll, Elevation, Dogleg/Forced Lay-up and Prevailing Wind.
Roll is defined as how far the ball rolls on the tee shot for both scratch and bogey golfers and how this affects the playing length of the hole.
Elevation is the measure of how the elevation changes on a hole and how it affects the playing length of the hole.
How much a longer/shorter a hole plays because of a bend or because of a hazard such as water or bunkers is the measure of Dogleg/forced lay-up. Effectively anything that forces a golfer not to play a full shot or a hole that allows a golfer to cut a corner.
Any courses that are unprotected from the wind, such as a links course, must take into account the prevailing wind and the effect it has on the length of a hole
There are several Obstacle Factors that are also taken into account when determining the difficulty of a course and the first of these is Topography.
Topography is basically a fancy word for how much of a slope there is on the ground in the landing zone and how this will affect your stance for your next shot. It also takes into account whether the approach will be uphill or downhill.
The next factor is the Fairway. Things that are taken into account are the width of the fairway, the length of the fairway and if there are any trees, bunkers of punitive rough around the landing zone.
The Green Target is also another consideration when measuring obstacle factors. Things to take into account for this one are the green size, length of approach, how well the green holds and how difficult the normal pin positions are.
The thickness of the rough also has a part to play in the course rating. This comes under Recoverability and Rough. This, understandably, measures the recoverability of a shot that misses the landing zone or the green.
The simplest to work out are Bunkers. This is simply measured by their proximity to the target areas and how easy/hard it is to recover from them.
Recoverability and rough coincides with Out of Bounds/Extreme Rough. OB/extreme rough is he evaluation of the distance from the centre of the landing zone to the OB/Extreme Rough. Deep, thick rough and underbrush in trees are taking into consideration too as a ball is deemed virtually impossible to find if it falls in one of these places.
Of course there must be a rating for a Water Hazard and just like previous, it is the evaluation of the water hazard and its distance from the landing zone or green.
For those who play parkland course, Trees are a key factor in rating a golf course. The evaluation of the size and density of the tree, its proximity to a landing zone or green and the difficulty of the recovery shot all add to the rating of a course.
The Green Surface is also taken into account and is the evaluation of greens difficulty from a putting standpoint. The only two factors that affect this rating are the green speed and the contouring of the surface. The size of the green is considered irrelevant.
The final factor that comes under the obstacle category is Psychological. Any obstacles that cause “uneasiness of the mind” are taken into account when evaluating the psychological aspect of the course. This is purely mathematical and is added on after the on-course rating is complete.
Each obstacle is assigned a value of 0 to 10, depending on its relation to how a scratch or bogey golfer would play the hole. When the evaluation is complete, the numbers for each hole’s obstacles are added and multiplied by a relative weighting factor.
The weighted obstacle stroke values are applied to scratch and bogey formulas and then converted to strokes. Those strokes are added or subtracted from the Yardage Rating to produce a Bogey Rating and the USGA Course Rating. Although a Bogey Rating is calculated it is not used to produce the Course Rating/Scratch Score.
Okay, so that last part frazzled our brains a bit too. If you’ve made it this far give yourself a pat on the back. For those who still have no idea, take comfort in knowing you’ll never (probably) have to rate a golf course for difficulty.

 

[jim8flog]

.
The Green Surface is also taken into account and is the evaluation of greens difficulty from a putting standpoint. The only two factors that affect this rating are the green speed and the contouring of the surface. The size of the green is considered irrelevant.
The final factor that comes under the obstacle category is Psychological. Any obstacles that cause “uneasiness of the mind” are taken into account when evaluating the psychological aspect of the course. This is purely mathematical and is added on after the on-course rating is complete.
Each obstacle is assigned a value of 0 to 10, depending on its relation to how a scratch or bogey golfer would play the hole. When the evaluation is complete, the numbers for each hole’s obstacles are added and multiplied by a relative weighting factor.
The weighted obstacle stroke values are applied to scratch and bogey formulas and then converted to strokes. Those strokes are added or subtracted from the Yardage Rating to produce a Bogey Rating and the USGA Course Rating. Although a Bogey Rating is calculated it is not used to produce the Course Rating/Scratch Score.
Okay, so that last part frazzled our brains a bit too. If you’ve made it this far give yourself a pat on the back. For those who still have no idea, take comfort in knowing you’ll never (probably) have to rate a golf course for difficulty.

A major part of this will be that the scratch player will know what part of the green to aiming for to leave an uphill putt the bogey player will probably just be aiming for the green.

 

[Voyager EMH]

A major part of this will be that the scratch player will know what part of the green to aiming for to leave an uphill putt the bogey player will probably just be aiming for the green.

Yes, I think you are right there.
I just wish there were more detail available as to how this is assessed for each hole on our courses. Over the winter we have filled in a greenside bunker on one of our holes. I just wonder whether this hole should be reassessed, could we do the adjustment ourselves, do we have to bring in the local team, merely to have our Course, Bogey and Slope Ratings re-done? Then, the Course Handicaps boards would have to be re-placed. So many more potential complications!

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Yes, I think you are right there.
I just wish there were more detail available as to how this is assessed for each hole on our courses. Over the winter we have filled in a greenside bunker on one of our holes. I just wonder whether this hole should be reassessed, could we do the adjustment ourselves, do we have to bring in the local team, merely to have our Course, Bogey and Slope Ratings re-done? Then, the Course Handicaps boards would have to be re-placed. So many more potential complications!

Filling a bunker in won't make any difference whatsover.

Lenghten or shorten the course by a few hundred yards will.

My previous course tried all sorts of things to get the SSS up by a shot, loads of new bunkers, putting a ditch across a par 5 making it an iron off the tee and generally making the course much tighter but it was only when they moved a tee back were the raters interested.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Filling a bunker in won't make any difference whatsover.

Lenghten or shorten the course by a few hundred yards will.

My previous course tried all sorts of things to get the SSS up by a shot, loads of new bunkers, putting a ditch across a par 5 making it an iron off the tee and generally making the course much tighter but it was only when they moved a tee back were the raters interested.

I certainly hope so, then our collective minds at our club can be at rest.
However, it appears that bunkers are taken into account as obstacles when the ratings assessment is done ie
The simplest to work out are Bunkers. This is simply measured by their proximity to the target areas and how easy/hard it is to recover from them.
...according to Golfshake.
But one bunker, on one hole, perhaps no difference to overall ratings, but how can we be sure, without bringing in the local assessment team?
This particular bunker was well below green level, so a blind shot, high bunker face. I suspect it therefore had a high rating as difficult to recover from and its removal is potentially ratings affecting.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I certainly hope so, then our collective minds at our club can be at rest.
However, it appears that bunkers are taken into account as obstacles when the ratings assessment is done ie
The simplest to work out are Bunkers. This is simply measured by their proximity to the target areas and how easy/hard it is to recover from them.
...according to Golfshake.
But one bunker, on one hole, perhaps no difference to overall ratings, but how can we be sure, without bringing in the local assessment team?
This particular bunker was well below green level, so a blind shot, high bunker face. I suspect it therefore had a high rating as difficult to recover from and its removal is potentially ratings affecting.

Its all a load of waffle.

Yardage of course and the rest is just fluff.

 

[wjemather]

Filling a bunker in won't make any difference whatsover.

Lenghten or shorten the course by a few hundred yards will.

My previous course tried all sorts of things to get the SSS up by a shot, loads of new bunkers, putting a ditch across a par 5 making it an iron off the tee and generally making the course much tighter but it was only when they moved a tee back were the raters interested.

That just shows a total lack of understanding of the rating system by your club officials. All they are doing by making such changes is making the course more difficult for higher handicappers, the affect on the model scratch golfer would be insignificant unless a hole is fundamentally altered in playing length, hence no change in the SSS.

Bunkers, ditches and other obstacles will rarely make a whole lot of difference to how the course plays for a scratch golfer which is what the scratch/SSS/Course Rating measures. However, they can make a significant difference to the bogey rating, and hence increase/decrease the Slope Rating.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

That just shows a total lack of understanding of the rating system by your club officials. All they are doing by making such changes is making the course more difficult for higher handicappers, the affect on the model scratch golfer would be insignificant unless a hole is fundamentally altered in playing length, hence no change in the SSS.

Bunkers, ditches and other obstacles will rarely make a whole lot of difference to how the course plays for a scratch golfer which is what the scratch/SSS/Course Rating measures. However, they can make a significant difference to the bogey rating, and hence increase/decrease the Slope Rating.

Totally agree, my old spot wasted a load of money when building 1 new tee achieved an increase on the SSS.

Some of the bunkers were subsequently removed. Maybe a good reason why I'm no longer a menber.

 

[sunshine]

That just shows a total lack of understanding of the rating system by your club officials. All they are doing by making such changes is making the course more difficult for higher handicappers, the affect on the model scratch golfer would be insignificant unless a hole is fundamentally altered in playing length, hence no change in the SSS.

Bunkers, ditches and other obstacles will rarely make a whole lot of difference to how the course plays for a scratch golfer which is what the scratch/SSS/Course Rating measures. However, they can make a significant difference to the bogey rating, and hence increase/decrease the Slope Rating.

Doesn't it depend on where the bunkers are? Put in some new fairway bunkers at 280 yards and scratch golfers will have to think about it, but they are out of the range of a bogey golfer.

 

[jim8flog]

Yes, I think you are right there.
I just wish there were more detail available as to how this is assessed for each hole on our courses. Over the winter we have filled in a greenside bunker on one of our holes. I just wonder whether this hole should be reassessed, could we do the adjustment ourselves, do we have to bring in the local team, merely to have our Course, Bogey and Slope Ratings re-done? Then, the Course Handicaps boards would have to be re-placed. So many more potential complications!

The question comes

Will it make a difference to the overall Course Rating.

Assumption on my part - maybe at best it could be something like 0.2 at best to the points tally for the course. Not likely to affect slope in my opinion as the removal of the bunker might well be considered to affect both the scratch and the bogey player equally.

We did do major changes on our course between course SSS assessments 1000s more trees, 4 new bunkers and many greenside bunkers resculpted to increase the chances of a short going in to them it gave a change to the SS of just one shot.

 

[wjemather]

Doesn't it depend on where the bunkers are? Put in some new fairway bunkers at 280 yards and scratch golfers will have to think about it, but they are out of the range of a bogey golfer.

Not generally. Scratch golfers will take the bunkers into account, obviously, but they are unlikely to cause significant problems. Bogey golfers may not be reaching the bunkers off the tee, but they're still in play for their second shots.

 

[Smiffy]

I attended a golf clinic hosted by Ian Woosnam many year ago and asked him how the pro's manage to get so much check on the ball. I commented that I could sometimes do it with a wedge or a nine iron, but the top players can even get a four iron to stop on the green. He asked me how far I normally hit a four iron and when I told him about 170 yards he asked me why I wanted to stop it...