Disqualification???

[Fyldewhite]

Couple of issues from our comp yesterday neither of which I think the committee have got right. I'd appreciate views guys.....

1. Player played in the competition (scoring CSS -2) and when he came in has been told that because he played in jeans, and there was a local rule prohibiting the wearing of jeans in competition play he would be DQ'd.......(please let's not get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of jeans, let's just say he broke the dress code rule of the club).

2. Another player in the same comp accidentally only put £2. in the envelope when he entered. He shot CSS -6. Our entry requirements are to take a card, put £3 in an envelope with name on and sign in on the computer before commencing play.

Both players are shown as DQ under Rule 3-4 on the system. Don't see how that could possibly apply and strongly suspect it has been picked off the list because they couldn't identify what rule these players were actually being DQ'd under. We have quite an inexperienced guy in charge of comps and the suggestion is that he was influenced heavily by the bar chat before making the decisions.

My view is that in the case of player 1 he cannot be disqualified (under rules of golf) from the competition for breaking a dress code rule. See this very much in the same ball park as the "Can a player be DQ for not entering score in computer" CONGU example......same sort of principle ie club can take other action/sanctions but not actually DQ the player. If this is not the case then what rule should he be DQ under?

In the second case I would say that as he has not met the entry requirements than he should be removed from the competition and therefore not receive the 1.2 reduction the computer is currently calculating. If that's not right then again what rule would he be DQ'd under? Is it possible to have a local "club rule" that carries a penalty of disqualification, for example in the Competition Conditions etc?

 

[Foxholer]

I'd think player 1 shouldn't be DQ-ed, but sanctioned under Club rules - unless there is a clause in CofCs that specify all Club Rules/Codes must be complied with. Dress Code is not a Local Rule! Irrespective of that, his round should stand for handicap purposes!

Player 2, however, appears to have broken the CofCs, so a DQ from the comp appears appropriate. Again, shouldn't affect the round for handicap though.

I'd also suggest that both be appealed - to get a definitive ruling from an appropriate body - like the Area Authority.

 

[rulefan]

1) No penalty can be applied under the RoG. The club may apply a sanction eg limiting playing rights etc. The pros apply fines for dress code breaches. Dress Code is not a CoC but may be a Regulation without RoG penalties.

2) The player has not conformed to the entry requirements. His entry should be revoked. His entry fee returned and no handicap adjustment applied.

 

[SammmeBee]

1) No penalty can be applied under the RoG. The club may apply a sanction eg limiting playing rights etc. The pros apply fines for dress code breaches. Dress Code is not a CoC but may be a Regulation without RoG penalties.

2) The player has not conformed to the entry requirements. His entry should be revoked. His entry fee returned and no handicap adjustment applied.

+1.

 

[anotherdouble]

Please forgive any ignorance but what is the difference between entry requirement of dress code and entry requirement of correct monies

 

[Foxholer]

1) No penalty can be applied under the RoG. The club may apply a sanction eg limiting playing rights etc. The pros apply fines for dress code breaches. Dress Code is not a CoC but may be a Regulation without RoG penalties.

2) The player has not conformed to the entry requirements. His entry should be revoked. His entry fee returned and no handicap adjustment applied.

As I posted, I agree with (1). But why shouldn't the handicap adjustment be applied to (2)? Other DQs can/do have handicap adjustments applied. Is it the difference between something happening within a 'valid' round and the fact that the round should never been allowed to start in the first place?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Sounds like a fun packed club to play at

 

[rulefan]

As I posted, I agree with (1). But why shouldn't the handicap adjustment be applied to (2)? Other DQs can/do have handicap adjustments applied. Is it the difference between something happening within a 'valid' round and the fact that the round should never been allowed to start in the first place?

It is not a DQ.

CONGU Decision 1

Q. A club has a Competition Condition requiring entry by applying a swipe card to a computer terminal .
What is the situation if a player fails to fulfil this obligation?


A. R&A Rules Limited has ruled “that a Committee must lay down a procedure for entry and if a
competitor fails to enter a competition in the correct manner he does not have an acceptable
score. ”Accordingly such a player does not have a score either for the competition or for handicap
purposes.

 

[rulefan]

Please forgive any ignorance but what is the difference between entry requirement of dress code and entry requirement of correct monies

Paying the correct money is part of the entry procedure.
A dress code relates to the players action (or inaction) after he had entered correctly.

 

[Foxholer]

CONGU Decision 1

Q. A club has a Competition Condition requiring entry by applying a swipe card to a computer terminal .
What is the situation if a player fails to fulfil this obligation?


A. R&A Rules Limited has ruled “that a Committee must lay down a procedure for entry and if a
competitor fails to enter a competition in the correct manner he does not have an acceptable
score. ”Accordingly such a player does not have a score either for the competition or for handicap
purposes.

Thanks.

 

[anotherdouble]

Paying the correct money is part of the entry procedure.
A dress code relates to the players action (or inaction) after he had entered correctly.

Cheers

 

[Fyldewhite]

Thanks to all. It's more or less as I thought it should be. As I said we have an inexperienced committee and I offered the simple advice when the comps guy took over to "always find out what the rule is and then simply apply it....don't be tempted to make up your own or you will create a rod for your own back". Looks like that fell on deaf ears then!! Still a great club....just a blip I'm sure.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

1) No penalty can be applied under the RoG. The club may apply a sanction eg limiting playing rights etc. The pros apply fines for dress code breaches. Dress Code is not a CoC but may be a Regulation without RoG penalties.

2) The player has not conformed to the entry requirements. His entry should be revoked. His entry fee returned and no handicap adjustment applied.

Just theoretically, if the club did have a local rule saying you couldn't play in jeans (even though it isn't a valid LR) what would be the penalty given that I think I am correct in saying it is against the rules to breach local rules regardless of their validity? And if the player hadn't applied the penalty, could he then be DQ'd?

 

[Ethan]

I bet the scoundrel in case 1 doesn't even wear a cravat in the men's bar after 7.30. The absolute cad. Hanging would be too lenient for him.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

even if i had finished second on countback, if the offender in case two had been dealt with with anything other than a "well done you won the comp - and by the way you owe us a quid" then i would be pretty disgusted.

it's a game in a club. if organisers even need a committee to sort something out like this then they're taking themselves a good deal too seriously.

 

[Fyldewhite]

even if i had finished second on countback, if the offender in case two had been dealt with with anything other than a "well done you won the comp - and by the way you owe us a quid" then i would be pretty disgusted.

it's a game in a club. if organisers even need a committee to sort something out like this then they're taking themselves a good deal too seriously.

Sounds harsh I know but the rule is you have to pay before you go out. Quite simple and all the others manage to do it and we check because we have to....folk do take the proverbial...regularly. To do the above to me is just the same as saying "well done you won the comp - and by the way just sign your card before the presentation"

 

[Colin L]

even if i had finished second on countback, if the offender in case two had been dealt with with anything other than a "well done you won the comp - and by the way you owe us a quid" then i would be pretty disgusted.

it's a game in a club. if organisers even need a committee to sort something out like this then they're taking themselves a good deal too seriously.

The organisers are the committee, wouldn't you say? And believe me - and others would say the same, I have no doubt - in an ordinary club you need very clear rules for competitions plus clear and consistent application of them just as much as you need them in a big tournament.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

The organisers are the committee, wouldn't you say? And believe me - and others would say the same, I have no doubt - in an ordinary club you need very clear rules for competitions plus clear and consistent application of them just as much as you need them in a big tournament.

well I would argue that you need them more in a big tournament for vast sums of money and global interest than you do for an insignificant club competition for a few dozen amateur golfers, but i don't disagree with the fundamental importance of rules.

we don't enter comps by putting money in an envelope, rather we hand over cash to the pro so the scope for the same thing happening at my club doesn't really exist. neither would we have scope for serial offenders taking the mick as Fyldewhite highlights.

if a technical rule relating expressly to off course matters and not the scorecard was transgressed through oversight, it is my opinion that in a club comp the organisers should apply common sense where possible to minimise the incidence of DQ's. unless the member regularly tried to get away with underpaying, i would be disappointed for any member to be DQ'd in this circumstance.

 

[Fyldewhite]

if a technical rule relating expressly to off course matters and not the scorecard was transgressed through oversight, it is my opinion that in a club comp the organisers should apply common sense where possible to minimise the incidence of DQ's. unless the member regularly tried to get away with underpaying, i would be disappointed for any member to be DQ'd in this circumstance.

As already highlighted it isn't a DQ as technically he didn't enter the competition. But, that aside, how do you define regular? or "common sense" for that matter? at what point does the penalty apply? second, third, fourth offence ? Is it different to put no money in or a lower amount? What if it's the right number of coins but one is a euro? ..... That is why the rule is as it is. It's simple, clear cut and easy to enforce.......oh, and harsh if it's a genuine mistake but so many other rules are like that I don't see why this would be different.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

As already highlighted it isn't a DQ as technically he didn't enter the competition. But, that aside, how do you define regular? or "common sense" for that matter? at what point does the penalty apply? second, third, fourth offence ? Is it different to put no money in or a lower amount? What if it's the right number of coins but one is a euro? ..... That is why the rule is as it is. It's simple, clear cut and easy to enforce.......oh, and harsh if it's a genuine mistake but so many other rules are like that I don't see why this would be different.

can't argue with any of that. absolutely correct.

in this particualr instance though, i'd still tap him on the shoulder and ask him for a quid and say well done, rather than give him 2 quid back and tell him his entry was revoked though. even if i was second on countback.

then of course, he'd say "no, i didn't pay so i wasn't entered, you have the win". and we'd argue in the clubhouse each denying ourselves the win.