Definition of a Temporary Green

[mikejohnchapman]

We played at Stoneham this week prior to the H4H meeting. We were informed that 2 temporaries were in play due to drainage work being carried out (i.e., not a short duration).

The first was cut into the fairway well short of the green. There was no white line around the hole defining a putting area and no discernible difference in the cutting height of the grass. The second, similarly was cut in the middle of the fairway with even longer grass surrounding the hole. Whilst not getting into the rights and wrongs of what the club should have done, my question is how should a player proceed?

Winter rules were not in place. There were a lot of worm casts about and unsurprisingly the balls were getting dirty due to the conditions.

Were we allowed to mark the ball and clean it prior to putting? if so at what distance?
Were we allowed to move worm casts as if they were loose impediments on a green? Again, if so at what distance?

Pity really as otherwise the course was well presented and in excellent condition for the time of year.

 

[jim8flog]

Firstly I am a bit surprised that winter rules were not in place given the weather in this region lately and that would had covered the cleaning of the golf balls. Did you check before going out?

worm casts are loose impediments

Definitions

Loose Impediment
Any unattached natural object such as:
• Stones, loose grass, leaves, branches and sticks,
• Dead animals and animal waste,
• Worms, insects and similar animals that can be removed easily, and the mounds or webs they build (such as worm casts and ant hills),

The green should really have the boundary marked.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'll post the following with an expectation of being corrected...

The Definitions say " The edge of the putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (such as where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge), unless the committee defines the edge in a different way ..." Given that in your situation, neither appear to have been done, I'd offer the opinion that there was no defined putting green, and you should have proceeded as if the ball was just in the general area? The committee really should have defined what is the putting green .

 

[Colin L]

I'll post the following with an expectation of being corrected...

The Definitions say " The edge of the putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (such as where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge), unless the committee defines the edge in a different way ..." Given that in your situation, neither appear to have been done, I'd offer the opinion that there was no defined putting green, and you should have proceeded as if the ball was just in the general area? The committee really should have defined what is the putting green .

I'm not quite with you on that. There is a temporary putting green - that has been stated. Also, there presumably was a flagstick in the hole indicating that this was the hole in use and correspondingly no flagstick on the permanent green. No question then: there is a temporary putting green in use, the issue being that it is not adequately defined. I would be pragmatic about it and make a reasonable estimate of its perimeter. You only need to do so in order to know where you can lift and clean your ball. It's not a huge deal.

 

[Old Skier]

Talking to the greens staff, they normally do not have any temps and it was only there for a short period while they carried out the work on each hole.

Apparently the holes are only out of play for a couple of days at most so I expect they weren’t to inclined to spend to much time on them.

PS both holes were to be back in play today.

 

[Bratty]

Hayling has 14a as a hole, which is a lovely looking par 3, exactly the same as all the other holes, and is used when any other hole is out.
Would be lovely if all courses had the space for the same.

 

[rulefan]

Hayling has 14a as a hole, which is a lovely looking par 3, exactly the same as all the other holes, and is used when any other hole is out.
Would be lovely if all courses had the space for the same.

Has it been rated for qualifiers?

We also have a 15a par 3 but didn't bother with rating. We simply record an out of play hole as 'not started' and mandate that players must not attempt to play 15a in a qualifying round. We had thought to make it OOB for qualifiers but decided it would confuse players and involve extensive marking.
We are using it at the moment as our 18th is out of action for extensive drainage work.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Hayling has 14a as a hole, which is a lovely looking par 3, exactly the same as all the other holes, and is used when any other hole is out.
Would be lovely if all courses had the space for the same.

In last few years we have set up a tee to play to our chipping green…it gives us a very short 80-90yd 3a hole that we bring into play when another hole has to be out of play. It’s a great little ‘stop-gap’ option.

In truth we could make it a greater challenge than we do as we could bring the practice bunkers at the side of it into play by choosing a flag position other than the two we normally have…but as we don’t have it assessed for qualifying purposes we tend to want to keep wear and pitch marks etc to a specific area of it.

 

[Old Skier]

Has it been rated for qualifiers?

We also have a 15a par 3 but didn't bother with rating. We simply record an out of play hole as 'not started' and mandate that players must not attempt to play 15a in a qualifying round. We had thought to make it OOB for qualifiers but decided it would confuse players and involve extensive marking.
We are using it at the moment as our 18th is out of action for extensive drainage work.

Yep, down as a qualifier. For future ref you can tell by entering a course on the EG app and if the tees come up it has been assessed or has a temporary assessment in place.

 

[backwoodsman]

I'm not quite with you on that. There is a temporary putting green - that has been stated. Also, there presumably was a flagstick in the hole indicating that this was the hole in use and correspondingly no flagstick on the permanent green. No question then: there is a temporary putting green in use, the issue being that it is not adequately defined. I would be pragmatic about it and make a reasonable estimate of its perimeter. You only need to do so in order to know where you can lift and clean your ball. It's not a huge deal.

I take your point and won't stake my pension (or anything else) on anything. But I'd just comment that while yes I agree there's a hole into which you are required to put the ball there's no actual putting green associated with that hole? And by way of separare argument, is there actually any requirement for any hole to have a putting green associated with it? (See last bit of sentence 2 of Rule 1.1) But I guess the whole thing is a moot point unless one is attempting to hold competions or qualifying rounds on the temporarily amended course.

 

[rulie]

I take your point and won't stake my pension (or anything else) on anything. But I'd just comment that while yes I agree there's a hole into which you are required to put the ball there's no actual putting green associated with that hole? And by way of separare argument, is there actually any requirement for any hole to have a putting green associated with it? (See last bit of sentence 2 of Rule 1.1) But I guess the whole thing is a moot point unless one is attempting to hold competions or qualifying rounds on the temporarily amended course.

From the definition of "hole", "The finishing point on the putting green for the hole being played." (my emphasis added)

 

[rulefan]

Yep, down as a qualifier. For future ref you can tell by entering a course on the EG app and if the tees come up it has been assessed or has a temporary assessment in place.

I was more concerned about Bratty's course as it seems that the temp can be substituted for any other hole.

 

[Colin L]

I take your point and won't stake my pension (or anything else) on anything. But I'd just comment that while yes I agree there's a hole into which you are required to put the ball there's no actual putting green associated with that hole? And by way of separare argument, is there actually any requirement for any hole to have a putting green associated with it? (See last bit of sentence 2 of Rule 1.1) But I guess the whole thing is a moot point unless one is attempting to hold competions or qualifying rounds on the temporarily amended course.

It is wise man who protects his pension.

There are four defined parts of the course that are not part of the general area: the teeing area, bunkers, penalty areas and the putting green [Rule 2.2a and 2.2b]. There is a Definition of the putting green. And there is Rule 13 with all the specific rules for play on the putting green. I think there is more of a hint that there needs to be a putting green.

I think you are misunderstanding that bit of Rule 1.1. It refers to ways in which a hole is completed without holing out, such as following a concession or your opponent's getting a loss of hole penalty in match play or not holing out in stableford.

 

[Smiffy]

Sweetwoods, on the Kent/Sussex border doesn't have temporary greens, it has "frost holes" instead...????

It also declares itself a "Championship" course. Does anybody know which championship has ever been held there???

 

[salfordlad]

Sweetwoods, on the Kent/Sussex border doesn't have temporary greens, it has "frost holes" instead...????

It also declares itself a "Championship" course. Does anybody know which championship has ever been held there???

The Kent/Sussex 1952 Armature Winders Championship, I think.

 

[backwoodsman]

It is wise man who protects his pension.

There are four defined parts of the course that are not part of the general area: the teeing area, bunkers, penalty areas and the putting green [Rule 2.2a and 2.2b]. There is a Definition of the putting green. And there is Rule 13 with all the specific rules for play on the putting green. I think there is more of a hint that there needs to be a putting green.

I think you are misunderstanding that bit of Rule 1.1. It refers to ways in which a hole is completed without holing out, such as following a concession or your opponent's getting a loss of hole penalty in match play or not holing out in stableford.

OK, I know I'm probably beat, but last bit of input ...
There are definitions of, and specific rules of play for, both bunkers and penalty areas - but there is no requirement for their presence on a course. (Indeed, we all know courses without bunkers - but I accept that a course with penalty areas is unlikely). Was just wondering if putting greens fit the same bill and were not an absolute requirement. A hole, yes, but a green? (And yes, I appreciate a course without greens would a) be unheard of, and b) would indeed be a strange beast ... )

 

[rulefan]

If there must be a hole there must be a putting green in which it resides.

The putting green for a hole contains the hole into which the player tries to play a ball.

 

[backwoodsman]

The pedant in me reluctantly concedes defeat

 

[Colin L]

The pedant in me reluctantly concedes defeat

I'm not going to search the Rules to find out, but I suspect it might be implicit throughout without ever being explicitly stated.

Fortunately, a pedant still with a pension.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Firstly I am a bit surprised that winter rules were not in place given the weather in this region lately and that would had covered the cleaning of the golf balls. Did you check before going out?

Yep, they made great play of the fact their fairway watering system had ensured they had great grass coverage and didn't need winter rules at the moment. They were right, the fairways were some of the best I have seen post-summer.