Deep Bunkers and Right to get Out of them

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not sure why you have links style bunkers on a parkland/heathland course.

Trying to think of other similar style courses with such bunkers. Aren’t deep, pot style bunkers, to keep sand in from strong winds. Not sure Farnham is a windy town. I remember when Farnham was holding a seniors qualifying comp for the pros, the pga came round and wanted the bunkers on the left of nine reshaped and flattened out. Seems they were too difficult for pros.

Unfortunately bunkers are a real hazard for most amateur golfers, and very deep ones even more so. For pros they are hardly a hazard, and are easier for them to play out of than thick rough which is often around them.

They are not pot bunkers - but for many they will 'feel' like pot bunkers. Steps in - steep revetted face.

The four bunkers on the left of 9 have been changed. Now just three. Back left has been removed - now a little swaley area - and front two joined together. Though they now very scary- but much better to play out of. Standing on the base of the greenside bunkers the green is now at about eye-level.

 

[USER1999]

Are these changes in character with the course?

 

[User62651]

My understanding of the rule is that you can only drop OUT of the bunker if you're returning to where you originally played from.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/03/rule-28-ball-unplayable.html

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

Didn't realise you could only take the one penalty drop option in a bunker to go back to where you played last shot from. Thankfully I've never lifted from a bunker unless GUR.

edit correction, good old golf monthly, you can use any of the 3 dropping options under one shot penalty but 2 clublength option or line from flag option have to be dropped in the bunker. http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/videos/rules/rules-golf-unplayable-ball-bunker

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Are these changes in character with the course?

The only change is the way the face and sides of each bunker is constructed - now being layered re-cycled astroturf - built up steeply in a revetted nature. Also we've put in new sand. The bunkers are basically the same shape - though we simplified the shape of many so less wavy in plan/outline - the previous waviness of some actually being of no value or use whatsoever - and slightly moved or extended/reduced size as we felt would improve the 'capture' hazard of any bunker.

 

[jim8flog]

I may get corrected here but I think you can drop under penalty of 1 shot by going back out of the bunker if you wish to any distance back but staying in line with the flag OR take a 2 clublength drop not nearer the hole if that'll get you out of the bunker OR as mentioned already go back to where you played your last shot.
3 options to get a lift out of the evil bunker with a 1 shot penalty.

Dropping in the bunker would only make sense if it was a free drop for e.g. flooding or none of the 3 drop under penalty options gave a better lie.

You will get corrected.

You may drop out of the bunker under penalty of one shot by going back to where the last shot was played from. You can drop in the bunker (unplayable) under penalty of one shot.

 

[jim8flog]

We are in the process of rebuilding all of our bunkers (four year programme). There is going to be some controversy around the depth and steepness of face of many.

The faces are going to be built in a revetted fashion using recycled astroturf

.

I would have thought this was going to cause some controversy.

As the riveted face is not part of a bunker it may well need a local rule declaring the faces as integral to the course.

Whilst watching the Indian open recently (with their riveted plastic bags of sand)I was talking to the Dorset president. He reckoned the reckoned the R&A frowned upon the use of artificial products to make rivetted faces.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I would have thought this was going to cause some controversy.

As the riveted face is not part of a bunker it may well need a local rule declaring the faces as integral to the course.

Whilst watching the Indian open recently (with their riveted plastic bags of sand)I was talking to the Dorset president. He reckoned the reckoned the R&A frowned upon the use of artificial products to make rivetted faces.

What do you mean 'is not part of the bunker'?

Also we have built the bunkers on eco-bunker principles and would not have done so if there was any issue with the R&A.

 

[patricks148]

What do you mean 'is not part of the bunker'?

Also we have built the bunkers on eco-bunker principles and would not have done so if there was any issue with the R&A.

have you got any pic of these??. Links Courses with pot bunkers are having to replace the faces on a reg basis and this all costs money. our 120 are having to get done every 5 to 10 years and is a big drain on funds to do so. these type may be the way forward.

 

[jim8flog]

What do you mean 'is not part of the bunker'?

Also we have built the bunkers on eco-bunker principles and would not have done so if there was any issue with the R&A.

I had this in mind

Bunker A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker.

However the status of a stacked astro turf face may be not as clear

and may well be treated as

A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker

This may well be why the R&A are against artificial sides.

 

[jim8flog]

I would add that if the club is using a man made product for the face of the bunker it is by definition an obstruction. Therefore if the face interferes with a players stance or area of intended swing they would be entitled to relief under Rule 24.2 , unless the committee declares the faces as 'integral to the course'.



24-2. Immovable Obstruction(ii)In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a)Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker; or


(b)Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

 

[chrisd]

I bought a Callaway Sure out with the intention of learning better bunker play and then go back to my 60* wedge --- the Sure Out is staying in the bag, great for bunkers and a pretty decent lob wedge to boot!

 

[Tommo21]

I've not read every post on here. My first thought/question would be, are the new bunkers out of character with the rest of the course. Is it a tough course, not easy to answer, but do most members go there to have a good time or a proper challenge. While its easy to say you'll need to hone your bunker skills, making them harder could be detrimental to the membership as most, I would imagine, joined a golf course the way they found it and now it could change completely. At Royal musselburgh most bunkers are easy to get out of as they dont have steep edges or faces....parkland course.

At Dunbar, true links quality, some fairway bunkers are shallow enough to get a longish shot away if your lucky with the lie. Around the greens they have traditional revetted bunkers, some deep, and if your in the wrong side of the bunker then playing side or even back options need to be considered.

My point, I would want to see the bunkers re built/repaired to the standard that is compatible with the course and what the membership joined for in the first place.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Not sure I agree with the concept of these bunkers and doesn't seem in keeping with the course and surely has a potential to be a major pace of play problem. As for playing it, I'd be using lineal all day long. I get the principle of eco-friendly (Caversham Heath re-did their bunkers using used rubber as the base to a benefit to the playbility year round, especially with drainage) but not sure these new bunkers are really going to add much to the overall enjoyment of the course

 

[bobmac]

On Sunday I found myself about 20inches from the face of a new bunker - the sand had not been fully smooth-raked and so it hadn't rolled that far from the face. The face in front of me was maybe 3ft+ high and very steep - almost vertical to my eyes though clearly note actually. I nearly got it out. It pinged somewhere high on the face and went straight up in the air - then landed plugged about a foot from the face.

I could not get the ball out.

If you cant get out of a 3 feet deep bunker 20in from the face off an uphill lie, you need a bunker lesson

 

[clubchamp98]

Our bunkers were redone last year and linings were added.
If you play a splash shot and hit the lining it just stops the club , you can seriously hurt yourself.
I have had to completely change my bunker shots to just get out and seem to have lost a lot of control,
I was regarded as a good bunker player but now am just glad to get out.

I have to say the bunkers look very good cosmetically but are a nightmare to play from.
The worst aspect is in your own head asking yourself before you play “Will I hit the lining or not.

Its all well and good having nice looking bunkers but they have to be playable for your members!
If some of the members can’t get out of them they may leave and go somewhere where they can get out of them.

If you put an artificial face in a bunker and someone hurts themselves hitting it in the follow through playing a shot “could the club be sued for compensation if they have been informed that they are possibly dangerous “????

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And here's a photo of one of our new eco-bunkers with the revetted face - showing the smoothed roll-down sand to throw the ball to the middle of the bunker

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

now that I've been told how to get photos off my phone - a nice sheer face on this one - and it's deep - with plenty of members wondering how the heck they'll get out of it... Note the flag is at the back of the green but that is maybe 15 paces max.

 

[patricks148]

now that I've been told how to get photos off my phone - a nice sheer face on this one - and it's deep - with plenty of members wondering how the heck they'll get out of it... Note the flag is at the back of the green but that is maybe 15 paces max.

View attachment 24986

i don't have any of our Bunkers on my phone at the moment, but even the easiest bunker on the course (fairway) is deeper than that

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm expecting to see a whole series of Crocodile Dundee style replies on the lines of 'call that a bunker?' 😁

 

[Hobbit]

Being a member of (seaside) links clubs for most of my 50 years of golf I wish I had a ££ for every time I had to play out sideways.

If its a deep, revetted bunker the sides within the sandy area should also encourage the ball to roll to the centre. Greens staff and members need to be aware of how to rake a links bunker, i.e. that includes pushing the sand back up the face, not always raking a bunker towards them - that's what flattens them.