Damaged hole

[Marko77]

After seeing Adam Scotts shot that damaged the hole, it got me wondering what should happen if it was to happen in club competition?

Obviously these guys have numerous officials with them that can come repair the hole and allow play to continue but what should be the protocol if it happened to one of us mere mortals?

1. call the pro?
2. leave it be, report it when round is finished?
3. hole out then repair it (if possible to repair)

 

[Dave3498]

I was marking a medal card for a fellow competitor on Saturday. He was left with a holeable putt of about 10 feet, but before he putted, he went up and tapped the inside rim of the hole with the toe of his putter as if to push back some damage. I let him putt out and the told him that I believed that his action was against the rules, but he didn't agree, saying that he was entitled to repair damage anywhere on the green. We agreed to differ on this and I said that I would get a ruling from the committee when we get in. Unfortunately there was no one around then, so when I signed his card I told him that it was on the understanding that the rule infringement was clarified later. I'm still waiting for a reply to my email to the committee on this.

My understanding is that if the edge of the hole is damaged by a ball pitch mark, this has to be agreed with your marker before a repair is made. You can't just walk up and improve the hole edge without this agreement. In general club competitions, I think that you have to put up with damage that is not made by a ball, and repair it after putting.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

From past experience, most club players (but not all) will make the damage worse in their attempts to repair it. My advice would be to leave it be.

 

[muttleee]

You're allowed to repair pitch marks before you take your putt so I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to repair a damaged hole in the same way. After all, the damage was caused by a ball pitching on the edge of the hole, so surely that makes it a pitchmark? The fact that it's right by the hole shouldn't make a difference, I would have thought.

That's my opinion but I'm happy to be corrected if it's wrong!

 

[clubchamp07]

Agreed Dave, I don't think he's allowed to fix the hole the way you said he fixed it. If maybe he had said to you before hand, that might be ok but just to walk up and do as he done seems wrong. I would like to hear the ruling. Pitch marks are different, but you must ask you playing partners if it's ok to fix them 1st.

Bloody good question.

I have seen people tapping the side of holes after they putt out but dont think I've every came across anybody doing it before they putt.

 

[Dave3498]

You're right about repairing a pitch mark muttleee, wherever it is on the green, but all must agree that it is a pitch mark before it is repaired. A player cannot just go up and tap the line of the putt without agreement.

 

[thecraw]

I was marking a medal card for a fellow competitor on Saturday. He was left with a holeable putt of about 10 feet, but before he putted, he went up and tapped the inside rim of the hole with the toe of his putter as if to push back some damage. I let him putt out and the told him that I believed that his action was against the rules, but he didn't agree, saying that he was entitled to repair damage anywhere on the green. We agreed to differ on this and I said that I would get a ruling from the committee when we get in. Unfortunately there was no one around then, so when I signed his card I told him that it was on the understanding that the rule infringement was clarified later. I'm still waiting for a reply to my email to the committee on this.

My understanding is that if the edge of the hole is damaged by a ball pitch mark, this has to be agreed with your marker before a repair is made. You can't just walk up and improve the hole edge without this agreement. In general club competitions, I think that you have to put up with damage that is not made by a ball, and repair it after putting.

Bet that was a fun round after that!!!

I would have shoved my putter up your a$$ and walked off! Completely over the top reaction from you, golf is a friendly sport and you could quite easily have agreed to let him repair it instead of being a pompous clown.

Blatant cheats deserve all they get but repairing the hole, damage caused by a ball or anothers neglect is hardly crime of the century.

Wonder how many names will be beside yours at the next monthly medal ballot sheet?

However the cruix of the matter is what made the damage, under rule 16-1c,( i think!) you are not allowed to repair other damage to the putting green if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole. Which is also a grey area!

 

[backwoodsman]

Under the Decisions (how sad is this - who else reads the Decisions) If the damage is clearly caused by a ball, then you can repair it. So I guess it's probably prudent (but not actually essential) to agree it's ball damage.

If it's not clearly ball damage, and the size of the hole is not significantly changed then you have to leave it alone or suffer penalty under 16.1a.

If size of hole is substantially changed, then if one is available, you get a committee member get repair it. If one is not available you can do it yourself. But if you do it and a committee member was available, then your suffer penalty under 16.1a again. But the thing is, if size of hole is altered, then you don't putt till after it's repaired. Rules - don't you just love 'em?

 

[Dave3498]

There's no grey area about this thecraw . I may well have allowed him to repair the damage if I had been given the opportunity, but I wasn't. He simple walked up and tapped the inside rim of the hole without reference to me. It's not an over-the-top reaction from me at all. I don't think you understand that when you are marking a card, you are doing it on behalf of all the competitors, not just yourself. And you're wrong about repairing damage by another's neglect. You have to play the hole as you find it. You can't put previous player's divots back any more than you can repair their footprints etc. Only ball impacts can be repaired on the green. Yes it is supposed to be a fun game, but it won't be much fun if people think they can adapt the rules to suit themselves, as you obviously do.

The ruling given by the committee in this case, was a 2 shot penalty.

 

[Dave3498]

So I guess it's probably prudent (but not actually essential) to agree it's ball damage.

Yes it is essential.

 

[backwoodsman]

So I guess it's probably prudent (but not actually essential) to agree it's ball damage.

Yes it is essential.

Dave - what follows is not an argument, it's a query. If Rules say you can repair damage caused by your ball, not sure why it's essential to agree it with a partner/opponent etc. Whether or not it is actually ball damage is obviously a question of fact - but I can't find anything in that says you have to agree questions of fact? Unless anyone can point me in right direction?

 

[Dave3498]

You can't leave it to the player to decide what is a pitch mark or ball damage on his line of putt. You even see it on the professional tours where the player calls his marker over to look before he repairs the damage. Some pitch marks are old and badly repaired by previous players, and many are open to different interpretation, similarly many are confused with spike marks, which of course, cannot be repaired.

If you didn't need to have agreement, a player could 'repair' a nice long groove to the hole without question. All golf rules are designed to prohibit abuse of any situation.

 

[thecraw]

I have played golf for 20 years now and never ONCE have I questioned anybodys judgement. If I'm on the other side of the fairway and somebody calls over they are in casual water or a seeded divot or even tractor marks I will tell them to take relief. I wont go over and inspect their claim, its trust and honesty. Golf is probably the most sporting game in the world.

What you did was "arsey" to the extreme and if thats how you get your fun then fair enough but I would avoid you at all costs in medals. My partner tells me he repaired ball damage caused by the neglect of a previous group on the rim of the hole I would accept it and walk on, not try to get somebody a two shot penalty because they didnt state their intention prior to fixing the hole.

A quiet word was all that was required instead of branding somebody a cheat for showing good intentions.

 

[Sam]

A quiet word was all that was required instead of branding somebody a cheat for showing good intentions.

Well said, sir

 

[bunkered]

Dave, am 99% sure you dont have to inform you partner if you want to repair a pitch mark on your line.

 

[backwoodsman]

Dave, am 99% sure you dont have to inform you partner if you want to repair a pitch mark on your line.

Which was my point entirely. I'll concede that it's "essential" in competition and that you'd be a bit of a div not to do so - mainly as a mark of the golfers inherent honesty. But not "essential" in that it would otherwise be against the rules. It's just that if you don't and are subsequently challenged, then you'd be presumed against on whatever offence you've supposedly committed for not having "declared" at the time. Which is why the pro's do it.

 

[Dave3498]

I don't know what game you're playing thecraw , but it isn't golf, and you're not a golfer. I would certainly question any score you put in if that's the way you play the game. The gentleman in question was quite happy to disagree with me and resolve the point later.

You do have to inform your marker before you repair a pitch mark divot.

 

[Leftie]

[quote I'll concede that it's "essential" in competition and that you'd be a bit of a div not to do so - mainly as a mark of the golfers inherent honesty.

[/QUOTE]

I must admit that I always try to remember to advise my playing partner/s any time I need to take a drop (free or under penalty), etc. Keeps things honest and gives them the opportunity to query if they want. Even pitch marks on the line of the putt.

On a slightly different tack, when I get to a green the first thing I do is to start looking for my (I wish) pitch mark and then end up repairing several that have somehow been missed by preceeding players. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. CC07 alluded to this a few posts ago and, thinking about it, he is definitely right in that I am not concentrating on my game - just getting more annoyed with the wan**ers who won't repair their own marks.

What do you do? Obviously you should repair your own and any other pitch marks you find but this has to be done to the possible detriment of your game. You cannot all putt out then wander around the green after doing repairs as the group behing might get a tad annoyed.

 

[Marko77]

Thanks Backwoodsman. Suppose I really should invest in a copy of the Decisions on the Rules.

 

[backwoodsman]

Thanks Backwoodsman. Suppose I really should invest in a copy of the Decisions on the Rules.

You're welcome - sounds a bit sad to have read the "Decisions" but I find it a fascinating read. When you see some of the decisions made, and realise they had to be referred up to the R&A by clubs, then you think "who the hell was trying that one on" - some of the scenarios are so unnatural or bizarre that you can't but think someone was trying to pull a flanker. But got caught?