Damaged hole

[thecraw]

I don't know what game you're playing thecraw , but it isn't golf, and you're not a golfer. I would certainly question any score you put in if that's the way you play the game. The gentleman in question was quite happy to disagree with me and resolve the point later.

You do have to inform your marker before you repair a pitch mark divot.

Ah, so you even have the balls of a brass monkey to call me a cheat now on an open internet forum? Clearly not satisfied with branding a fellow member of your golf club a cheat you want to extend it further! Please clarify how Agatha Christie has managed to arrive at that conclusion? I will be so interested to know.

I take it this guy was beating you at the time?

 

[Dave3498]

There are two ways of playing golf thecraw.

1) The way I play, in accordance with the R&A Rules.
2) The way you and your friends play.

You say, that as a marker, when someone calls across the fairway for free relief you simply agree and let them proceed. I say that it is your duty to your fellow competitors to first check that free relief is permitted within the rules, and that the relief is properly taken.

I'll bet that you are in the group, (and there are some in my club) who don't think twice about asking a fellow player what club he just played before they have played their own shot, or asking him how far they are from the green etc.

I'll also bet that you have never received a shout from the other side of the fairway to say 'I've accidently moved my ball, I'll replace it and add a penalty.' No the only shouts you will get, are for free relief, often unjustified.

When it comes to repairing damage made by preceding players, do you include badly repaired divots in this? Do you include deep footprints in the bunkers? No you don't, and you shouldn't include damage to the green either, unless made by a ball impact. Before any player can touch his line of putt to effect a repair, he should say what he is doing and get agreement. Other damage is covered by equity.

The gentleman in question has been playing golf at least twice as long as you have and all that time he was under the impression that he could repair any damage on the line of his putt. I'm pleased to say that he now knows he can't.

 

[shanker]

You say, that as a marker, when someone calls across the fairway for free relief you simply agree and let them proceed. I say that it is your duty to your fellow competitors to first check that free relief is permitted within the rules, and that the relief is properly taken.

I agree, Dave. I've been in this situation and have had to tell someone that, in fact, he wasn't entitled to relief.
And as for repairing damage to he hole...surely it's common sense to consult your partners before you do it.

 

[Tommo21]

Just came into this one and I’ll give you my 35 years worth of playing golf.

Anyone who walks up and repairs the hole should be penalise full stop. You are not allowed to unless it is a pitch mark that’s damaged the side of the hole. Simple really, it’s not about trust, it’s the rule.

In my humble opinion, Dave did the right thing. I’ll also add, that ignorance to the rules don’t mean you get off with it. I’ve called a penalty on myself a few times over the years, touching the ball with the putter is one, and I’ve had a penalty called on me from a playing partner, this time the ball moving as I was looking at the target. I fully accepted that situation because it’s the rules.

If you want to play it different then fine, but it isn’t golf. Certainly not competition golf.

 

[SammmeBee]

Rule 16-1 from The Rules of Golf
a.Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:
(i) the player may remove loose impediments, provided he does not press anything down;
(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;
(iii) in measuring – Rule 18-6;
(iv) in lifting or replacing the ball – Rule 16-1b;
(v) in pressing down a ball-marker;
(vi) in repairing old hole plugs or ball marks on the putting green – Rule 16-1c; and
(vii) in removing movable obstructions – Rule 24-1.
(Indicating line for putting on putting green – see Rule 8-2b)
b. Lifting and Cleaning Ball
A ball on the putting green may be lifted and, if desired, cleaned. The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced (see Rule 20-1).
c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage
The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.
Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
d. Testing Surface
During the stipulated round, a player must not test the surface of any putting green by rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the surface.
Exception: Between the play of two holes, a player may test the surface of any practice putting green and the putting green of the hole last played, unless the Committee has prohibited such action (see Note 2 to Rule 7-2).
e. Standing Astride or on Line of Putt
The player must not make a stroke on the putting green from a stance astride, or with either foot touching, the line of putt or an extension of that line behind the ball.
Exception: There is no penalty if the stance is inadvertently taken on or astride the line of putt (or an extension of that line behind the ball) or is taken to avoid standing on another player’s line of putt or prospective line of putt.
f. Making Stroke While Another Ball in Motion
The player must not make a stroke while another ball is in motion after a stroke from the putting green, except that if a player does so, there is no penalty if it was his turn to play.
(Lifting ball assisting or interfering with play while another ball in motion – see Rule 22)
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 16-1:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.
(Position of caddie or partner – see Rule 14-2)
(Wrong putting green – see Rule 25-3)


Which is then clarified by the Decisions Book:

If the damage is clearly identifiable as a ball mark, the player may repair it (Rule 16-1c).
If the damage is not clearly identifiable as a ball mark, then:
(a) If the damage is such that the proper dimensions of the hole have not been changed materially, the player should continue play without repairing the hole. If he touches the hole in such circumstances, a breach of Rule 16-1a occurs.
(b) If the proper dimensions of the hole have been changed materially, the player should request the Committee to have the hole repaired. If a Committee Member is not readily available, the player may repair the damage, without penalty.
If a player repairs a materially damaged hole when a Committee Member is readily available, he incurs a penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a.

 

[thecraw]

There are two ways of playing golf thecraw.

1) The way I play, in accordance with the R&A Rules.
2) The way you and your friends play.

You say, that as a marker, when someone calls across the fairway for free relief you simply agree and let them proceed. I say that it is your duty to your fellow competitors to first check that free relief is permitted within the rules, and that the relief is properly taken.

Firstly it is not my duty at all, I play in medals for myself not anybody else. Somebody wants to cheat they cheat themselves, they can live with that its up too them.

I'll bet that you are in the group, (and there are some in my club) who don't think twice about asking a fellow player what club he just played before they have played their own shot, or asking him how far they are from the green etc. .

I would need to be Nostradamus to ask somebody when club they just hit before they hit it!!!!

When it comes to repairing damage made by preceding players, do you include badly repaired divots in this? Do you include deep footprints in the bunkers? No you don't, and you shouldn't include damage to the green either, unless made by a ball impact. Before any player can touch his line of putt to effect a repair, he should say what he is doing and get agreement. Other damage is covered by equity.

The gentleman in question has been playing golf at least twice as long as you have and all that time he was under the impression that he could repair any damage on the line of his putt. I'm pleased to say that he now knows he can't.

While we are on the topic of you calling me a cheat, may I just add that last year I failed to qualify for the club championship knockout stages via a countback, this included my two shot penalty for the ball re-bounding off of the lip of the bunker at the 14th and striking me on my thigh before falling back into the bunker, an incident that was not seen by my playing partners who were obviously too busy repairing pitchmarks without telling me!

Obvious actions of a cheat, not that I really need to justify myself. Incidently how often do you get to play in medals with your mates since my mates are now also cheats in your eyes???

Your club sounds like a right barrell of laughs.

You never stated if this guy was beating you at the time!

 

[bunkered]

Dave, without me reading through all the posts again, what is the penalty for not informing your playing partners before you repair a pich mark on your line.

 

[backwoodsman]

Dave, without me reading through all the posts again, what is the penalty for not informing your playing partners before you repair a pich mark on your line.

Precisely the point - there is no penalty for not informing partners/players etc. Penalties are only applicable if you are adjudged to have done something that was different to repairing a pitch mark

 

[Dave3498]

Backwoodsman is quite right, there is no penalty as such, but if you repair what you claim to be a pitch mark and your marker says it wasn't, then you are in dispute and the matter must go to the committee. It is always adviseable to say what you are doing, before you do it thus giving your marker a chance to dispute it.

 

[Sam]

Backwoodsman is quite right, there is no penalty as such, but if you repair what you claim to be a pitch mark and your marker says it wasn't, then you are in dispute and the matter must go to the committee. It is always adviseable to say what you are doing, before you do it thus giving your marker a chance to dispute it.

Dave
Isn't this where some of the difference actually lies? I wouldn't dream of challenging a repair of a pitch mark in that I start off assuming that other players are honest. I also have the belief that if anyone wants to cheat, they are the losers. Cricket and golf were sports (or is it games!!!) for gentlemen and ladies. Cricket lost that once batsmen stopped walking - here's hoping golf doesn't

 

[Dave3498]

Sam. All I'm saying is that your shouldn't deliberately walk into a situation that is going to be questioned. Always be open about what you are doing and no one will look askance at you.

Of course you must assume that everyone is honest, but you will, unfortunately, come across people who spend all their time visiting 'Open' competitions with the sole purpose of picking up prizes, and to be quite frank about it, they cheat. I have marked cards for these people and I have had to pull them up on many occasions. One of the favourites is the heavy foot behind the ball in the rough, giving a better lie. They also play some miracle shots from the woods. They never lose a ball, it is always miraculously found in a good position. Watch out for these people and make sure that they don't take your silverware under false pretences.

 

[bunkered]

Dave, if i thought i had to watch my playing partners every time i played i would not be able to concentrate on my game, i have played competition golf for 25 years and only once have i caught somebody cheating. most of the time it is just people not knowing the rules, if it was left to me i would not let people near a golf course until they had a basic understanding on the rules of golf, i understand this is what they do in sweden