Course ratings

Rlburnside

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Could someone explain to me why my course h/c is the same at my home club as my away club, my home club is longer and harder.

Home club slope rating 118, par 71, 6172 yards

Away club, slope rating 117, par 68, 5536 yards

Seems to me my home club has the wrong slope rating.
 

BubbaP

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Could someone explain to me why my course h/c is the same at my home club as my away club, my home club is longer and harder.

Home club slope rating 118, par 71, 6172 yards

Away club, slope rating 117, par 68, 5536 yards

Seems to me my home club has the wrong slope rating.
What are the course ratings of them both?
 

rulefan

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Could someone explain to me why my course h/c is the same at my home club as my away club, my home club is longer and harder.

Home club slope rating 118, par 71, 6172 yards

Away club, slope rating 117, par 68, 5536 yards

Seems to me my home club has the wrong slope rating.
What is your Handicap Index?
 

Rlburnside

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Cool, nothing unusual there then.
Guess the stock answer is "the powers that be" think your home club is 2.1 shots "longer and harder".

Of course your game characteristics may not match well with their rating system.

Thanks
If “ the powers that be” think home course is 2.1 shots longer and harder why is there not a difference with h/cs of the 2 clubs?

I thought the whole idea of whs was to even up h/cs playing different courses, my away course is far easier so I don’t understand the logic.
 

wjemather

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Could someone explain to me why my course h/c is the same at my home club as my away club, my home club is longer and harder.

Home club slope rating 118, par 71, 6172 yards

Away club, slope rating 117, par 68, 5536 yards

Seems to me my home club has the wrong slope rating.
Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a scratch and bogey (20-24 HCP) golfer; it is not the measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating.

The Slope ratings of your home and away courses show that they are of very similar relative difficulty, and since in GB&I Course Handicaps only account for Slope, which is enough to achieve equity, it is therefore expected that your Course Handicap will (almost always) be the same at both courses.

Your "play to handicap" score at each course is the Course Rating, or (36 - (CR - Par)) Stableford points.
 

Rlburnside

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The difference the length of the course suggests the away course is trickier (ie has more obstacles to navigate) for a mid handicapper.

Thanks

The away course is tricky with a lot of hazards but my home course has also just as many hazards I think we only have 2 holes where there are no hazards.

I find the away course easier as it’s not as long and I’m hitting more irons for second shots into greens instead of hybrids/woods for second shots on my home course.
 

Rlburnside

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Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a scratch and bogey (20-24 HCP) golfer; it is not the measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating.

The Slope ratings of your home and away courses show that they are of very similar relative difficulty, and since in GB&I Course Handicaps only account for Slope, which is enough to achieve equity, it is therefore expected that your Course Handicap will (almost always) be the same at both courses.

Your "play to handicap" score at each course is the Course Rating, or (36 - (CR - Par)) Stableford points.

Thanks

The slope ratings may show that they are very similar difficulty but in reality that is not what members of both clubs think, everyone acknowledges our club is far harder to play.

I played my away course Saturday and was speaking to a 5 h/c and he thought my home club should have a slope rating far higher.
 

wjemather

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Thanks

The slope ratings may show that they are very similar difficulty but in reality that is not what members of both clubs think, everyone acknowledges our club is far harder to play.

I played my away course Saturday and was speaking to a 5 h/c and he thought my home club should have a slope rating far higher.
Note: similar relative difficulty, not similar difficulty. The difference in Course Ratings shows the difference in difficulty.

Unfortunately there is widespread misunderstanding of what Slope measures.
 

rulefan

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Thanks
.... everyone acknowledges our club is far harder to play.

It is.
2 strokes more difficult

Slope only indicates the relative difficulty of a specific course for a higher (bogey) handicapper (22ish) as opposed to a scratch player on that particular course. A slope of 120 on one course does not mean the course is just as difficult as 120 on another course.
That is what the Course Rating does. The CRs you gave indicate that your home club is 2.1 strokes more difficult for a scratch player than the away course. 70.5 as opposed to 68.4.

However, depending on what and where the obstacles are, a course may be relatively more or less difficult for a bogey player. This is what slope addresses.
The standard for a course which just as difficult relatively for both types of player is 113. The higher the slope the greater the relative difficulty. The number of extra strokes any player would need to play to his handicap is calculated by multiplying his Handicap Index by Slope/113. (117/113 & 118/113)

How well you actually performed on the day is shown by the Score Differential. ie {(Gross Score - Course Rating) x (113 / Slope)}
 
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mikejohnchapman

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Having been involved in assessing SSS and WHS Course ratings I think the big difference is that SSS was predominantly focussed on length whereas WHS Course Rating takes into account many other factors. One of the biggest being the situation regarding landing areas from the tee for scratch and bogey golfers. If the landing zones are heavily protected or even forced lay-up areas this can make a real difference to the relative difficulty that goes into the slope areas. The protection of the green complexes is also a bigger factor in accessing the difficulty of the course both actual and relative.

The USGA Course rating system has been used for many years and attempts to be more "scientific" with many more measurements to come up with both course ratings and slope ratings. My only criticism is the relative lack of emphasis that is given to prevailing weather conditions - especially wind - for links / cliff top / exposed courses.
 

rulefan

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Having been involved in assessing SSS and WHS Course ratings I think the big difference is that SSS was predominantly focussed on length whereas WHS Course Rating takes into account many other factors. One of the biggest being the situation regarding landing areas from the tee for scratch and bogey golfers.
Not quite true. SSS did take note of issues in landing areas, doglegs etc but was only concerned with the scratch player (hence the name). However, you are certainly correct in the amount of additional data, measuring and calculation that goes into the process.
 

Rlburnside

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It is.
2 strokes more difficult

Slope only indicates the relative difficulty of a specific course for a higher (bogey) handicapper (22ish) as opposed to a scratch player on that particular course. A slope of 120 on one course does not mean the course is just as difficult as 120 on another course.
That is what the Course Rating does. The CRs you gave indicate that your home club is 2.1 strokes more difficult for a scratch player than the away course. 70.5 as opposed to 68.4.

However, depending on what and where the obstacles are, a course may be relatively more or less difficult for a bogey player. This is what slope addresses.
The standard for a course which just as difficult relatively for both types of player is 113. The higher the slope the greater the relative difficulty. The number of extra strokes any player would need to play to his handicap is calculated by multiplying his Handicap Index by Slope/113. (117/113 & 118/113)

How well you actually performed on the day is shown by the Score Differential. ie {(Gross Score - Course Rating) x (113 / Slope)}

Thank you for taking the trouble to explain the workings whs.
 

Rlburnside

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Having been involved in assessing SSS and WHS Course ratings I think the big difference is that SSS was predominantly focussed on length whereas WHS Course Rating takes into account many other factors. One of the biggest being the situation regarding landing areas from the tee for scratch and bogey golfers. If the landing zones are heavily protected or even forced lay-up areas this can make a real difference to the relative difficulty that goes into the slope areas. The protection of the green complexes is also a bigger factor in accessing the difficulty of the course both actual and relative.

The USGA Course rating system has been used for many years and attempts to be more "scientific" with many more measurements to come up with both course ratings and slope ratings. My only criticism is the relative lack of emphasis that is given to prevailing weather conditions - especially wind - for links / cliff top / exposed courses.

Your comment about weather conditions- especially wind has always been a bug bear of mine, I play at one of the windiest places in the UK and always felt that the people that assessed our course never truly appreciated the amount of wind we get. Far better for them to have a average wind speed for a year and that would help to assess the course better.
 

rulefan

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The USGA course rating system takes particular note of average wind speeds. The following is an extract. I haven't included the actual adjustments as the values only make sense in the context of the whole rating calculations.
4. WIND a. General
A yardage adjustment for wind should be made based on average daily wind speed at times when golf is played. Wind increases the effect of other obstacles. If wind is generally a factor and an obstacle could be rated a particular value or one unit higher, consider choosing the higher value. However, shot lengths are not to be adjusted by wind.
Adjustments are made based on the following wind speed ranges.
<5, 5-6, 7-8, 9-10, 11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 17-18, 19-20, >20
 

mikejohnchapman

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Not quite true. SSS did take note of issues in landing areas, doglegs etc but was only concerned with the scratch player (hence the name). However, you are certainly correct in the amount of additional data, measuring and calculation that goes into the process.
Hence predominantly not totally. I have been struck however by the number of courses where SSS is the same as the course rating if rounding was used.
 

mikejohnchapman

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Your comment about weather conditions- especially wind has always been a bug bear of mine, I play at one of the windiest places in the UK and always felt that the people that assessed our course never truly appreciated the amount of wind we get. Far better for them to have a average wind speed for a year and that would help to assess the course better.
I'm not sure how you can sensibly factor this in. You are assessing a course for normal play in the prime playing season (May / Sept?). You ask if the rough and green speeds are representative for normal play but you are looking for the "normal" playing conditions for the course to make the assessment.

We all know that many courses are highly susceptible to weather conditions at various times of the year - in particular wind. The changes can be very large and hence the wind factor adjusted for average wind speed during the season by definition is going to be lower than at other times. Add to this the assessors aren't normally members of the club and hence their experience of the playing conditions is limited.

I appreciate that PCC is meant to smooth some of the difficulties but as has been discussed elsewhere this doesn't appear to help in some cases.

It's a result of the system used - I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way it is.
 
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