Course Rating

[D-S]

No I'm saying bogey rating is a made up figure that really has no place in the world. Course rating is far more important.

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean that the bogey figure is a ‘made up figure’.

I assume you do know that it comes from the same team of raters following the same procedure using the same grading and measuring systems. The only difference is that one is derived from a model scratch players ability and the other is from a model bogey players ability. Everything else is the same.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean that the bogey figure is a ‘made up figure’.

I assume you do know that it comes from the same team of raters following the same procedure using the same grading and measuring systems. The only difference is that one is derived from a model scratch players ability and the other is from a model bogey players ability. Everything else is the same.

im saying the process is complete rubbish frankly. when i go to a course and offline is just another fairway or under a tree that you can play out from (not a lost ball) and coming from a course where if you go offline your ball is in the gorse and is lost.... costing you a shot.. trying to say these raters deem that course a lower slope than ones where you can hit a drive 100 yards offline and have a clear shot into the green compared to having to take a drop then yes the rating process is tosh.

 

[rulefan]

im saying the process is complete rubbish frankly. when i go to a course and offline is just another fairway or under a tree that you can play out from (not a lost ball) and coming from a course where if you go offline your ball is in the gorse and is lost.... costing you a shot.. trying to say these raters deem that course a lower slope than ones where you can hit a drive 100 yards offline and have a clear shot into the green compared to having to take a drop then yes the rating process is tosh.

"... these raters deem that course ..."

The rater do not deem anything.
As D-S says, they use exactly the same process as for the CR (ie for the scratch player) but all the measurements are taken from the target areas for the bogey player. The difficulty values also relate specifically to a bogey golfer.

The raters do not just make a guess or even an estimate. They do what they do for the Course Rating.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

"... these raters deem that course ..."

The rater do not deem anything.
As D-S says, they use exactly the same process as for the CR (ie for the scratch player) but all the measurements are taken from the target areas for the bogey player. The difficulty values also relate specifically to a bogey golfer.

Right. I'm sorry but the process is completely flawed.

Take these examples

Top meadow

This is the 3rd hole, down hill par 5. To the right is another fairway, to the left is another fairway. All the way down you can be anywhere right or left and be safe


Compare that to our second hole


Tee shot here. Too far right is gorse or if really right another green which you then won't get over the gorse

Fairway feeds towards water, water all down the left so anything left is dead

Bunker catches drives aswell

So explain how one course which is covered with holes like this where you can be miles offline and have a shot has a higher bogey rating than a course where if your offline .. good luck


As a question are the raters good golfers or bogey golfers? It seems they think they know what a bogey golfer would do rather than understand what actually happens

 

[rulefan]

Right. I'm sorry but the process is completely flawed.

Take these examples

Top meadow View attachment 57902

This is the 3rd hole, down hill par 5. To the right is another fairway, to the left is another fairway. All the way down you can be anywhere right or left and be safe


Compare that to our second hole
View attachment 57903

Tee shot here. Too far right is gorse or if really right another green which you then won't get over the gorse

Fairway feeds towards water, water all down the left so anything left is dead

Bunker catches drives aswell

So explain how one course which is covered with holes like this where you can be miles offline and have a shot has a higher bogey rating than a course where if your offline .. good luck

Without seeing and rating the course I can't. But if you and your Committee believe the ratings are wrong you should contact the County.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Without seeing and rating the course I can't. But if you and your Committee believe the ratings are wrong you should contact the County.

We have. They came and rated it even lower lol thus proving they either haven't got a clue or are making it up

Apparently not enough bunkers

Won't come back for 5 years

Think you missed my edit. Are course raters bogey golfers or good golfers? It's apparent they think they know what a bogey golfer would do rather than having experience

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Here is a video of what I would class a bogey golfer (17 handicap) playing the course

 

[D-S]

We have. They came and rated it even lower lol thus proving they either haven't got a clue or are making it up

Apparently not enough bunkers

Won't come back for 5 years

Think you missed my edit. Are course raters bogey golfers or good golfers? It's apparent they think they know what a bogey golfer would do rather than having experience

If you are this exercised about the rating process, can I suggest you take the time and trouble to understand and learn about the process?

It will at least make your opinions/allegations come from some firm ground.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

If you are this exercised about the rating process, can I suggest you take the time and trouble to understand and learn about the process?

It will at least make your opinions/allegations come from some firm ground.

Are the raters good golfers (below 10) or are they actual bogey golfers?

 

[rulefan]

We have. They came and rated it even lower lol thus proving they either haven't got a clue or are making it up

Apparently not enough bunkers

Won't come back for 5 years

Think you missed my edit. Are course raters bogey golfers or good golfers? It's apparent they think they know what a bogey golfer would do rather than having experience

The raters will be a mixture of handicaps. But it doesn't make any difference. The rating data collected is objective. eg What is the distance from the fairway to the gorse at the target area for the scratch/bogey player? How deep it the face of the bunker? Is the lake in the target area for the scratch/bogey player?
Incidentally, the Manual defines a bogey player.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

The raters will be a mixture of handicaps. But it doesn't make any difference. The rating data collected is objective. eg What is the distance from the fairway to the gorse at the target area for the scratch/bogey player? How deep it the face of the bunker? Is the lake in the target area for the scratch/bogey player?
Incidentally, the Manual defines a bogey player.

What's the definition?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

im saying the process is complete rubbish frankly. when i go to a course and offline is just another fairway or under a tree that you can play out from (not a lost ball) and coming from a course where if you go offline your ball is in the gorse and is lost.... costing you a shot.. trying to say these raters deem that course a lower slope than ones where you can hit a drive 100 yards offline and have a clear shot into the green compared to having to take a drop then yes the rating process is tosh.

I know all courses are different , but most times it's the lower handicap golfers that go 100 yards off-line and the bogey players plod up the middle, so it could make sense that a course like you described could be a fairly low Slope rating. And a course that doesn't punish wayward shots would have a higher slope as it then becomes more of a bonus to hit distance and your typical bogey player is at a bigger disadvantage.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I know all courses are different , but most times it's the lower handicap golfers that go 100 yards off-line and the bogey players plod up the middle, so it could make sense that a course like you described could be a fairly low Slope rating. And a course that doesn't punish wayward shots would have a higher slope as it then becomes more of a bonus to hit distance and your typical bogey player is at a bigger disadvantage.

See now that's the most sense I've read today on the matter. A logical explanation

It still seems rather odd knowing the courses in the area and what would be harder, I mean again top meadow with it's ridiculous 137 slope when Thorndon park. The best course in the area.. has 126. With proper tree line fairways

Just very weird that being at a tougher course (proven by course ratings) I get less shots and my scores are worth less than going to easier courses (by course rating) and I get more shots and if I score worse I get a better diff

 

[rulefan]

What's the definition?

The manual says:
A bogey golfer is a male golfer with a Handicap Index around 20.0, and a female player with an index of around 24.0.

But the USGA has also defined a bogey golfer this way:
A player with a USGA Handicap Index of 17.5 to 22.4 strokes for men and 21.5 to 26.4 for women. Under normal situations the male bogey golfer can hit his tee shot 200 yards and can reach a 370-yard hole in two shots. Likewise, the female bogey golfer can hit her tee shot 150 yards and can reach a 280-yard hole in two shots. Players who have a Handicap Index between the parameters above but are unusually long or short off the tee are not considered to be a bogey for course rating purposes

 

[jim8flog]

Do you believe your course/slope rating is correct ?

I have just gone back through my handicap and found the last time I had 36 points at one of my two courses I am a member of was last October, next best was 34 points in December.

I have stated before that this course is at least a shot harder then the other, but the rating is the other way round.

This Sunday I am playing away at another course where the rating is wrong IMO, will drop 2 shots off my 4 handicap, so will be on a 2, when we play a Vet's comp there some people lose as much as 5 shots from their home course.

It was re-rated recently and slope went up to 107, should be at least 113 IMO.

How does your course stack up ?

The old SSS and the new Course rating are nearly identical (just decimal points different) where I play.

I know what causes the difference between par and course rating- 2 par 5s based upon difficulty rather than length.

 

[wjemather]

Right. I'm sorry but the process is completely flawed.

Take these examples

Top meadow View attachment 57902

This is the 3rd hole, down hill par 5. To the right is another fairway, to the left is another fairway. All the way down you can be anywhere right or left and be safe


Compare that to our second hole
View attachment 57903

Tee shot here. Too far right is gorse or if really right another green which you then won't get over the gorse

Fairway feeds towards water, water all down the left so anything left is dead

Bunker catches drives aswell

So explain how one course which is covered with holes like this where you can be miles offline and have a shot has a higher bogey rating than a course where if your offline .. good luck


As a question are the raters good golfers or bogey golfers? It seems they think they know what a bogey golfer would do rather than understand what actually happens

Just looking at those 2 holes, I'm seeing:

• a wide fairway at Ingrebourne with water down one side (presumably a red PA, so not a S+D penalty); the gorse and bunkers are probably outside the landing zones so count for very little; few/no trees; and from the ratings you mentioned, I'm guessing the rough is also relatively low making recovery easier.
• a narrower fairway at Top Meadow that narrows even more for the scratch player with significant trees and bunkers located around the landing zones; recovery will be more difficult

I know all courses are different , but most times it's the lower handicap golfers that go 100 yards off-line and the bogey players plod up the middle, so it could make sense that a course like you described could be a fairly low Slope rating. And a course that doesn't punish wayward shots would have a higher slope as it then becomes more of a bonus to hit distance and your typical bogey player is at a bigger disadvantage.

The dispersion cone from which rating values are derived is wider for the model bogey player.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Just looking at those 2 holes, I'm seeing:

• a wide fairway at Ingrebourne with water down one side (presumably a red PA, so not a S+D penalty); the gorse and bunkers are probably outside the landing zones so count for very little; few/no trees; and from the ratings you mentioned, I'm guessing the rough is also relatively low making recovery easier.
• a narrower fairway at Top Meadow that narrows even more for the scratch player with significant trees and bunkers located around the landing zones; recovery will be more difficult

The dispersion cone from which rating values are derived is wider for the model bogey player.

Yet this makes it very binary and doesn't judge what's the other side of the fairway.. if you go off the fairway at top meadow you have a shot. Last time we played my mate drove into the 4rh tee box (350 yards) and then straight onto the green

Where as you go off the fairway at ingrebourne you are in gorse or water

 

[wjemather]

Yet this makes it very binary and doesn't judge what's the other side of the fairway.. if you go off the fairway at top meadow you have a shot. Last time we played my mate drove into the 4rh tee box (350 yards) and then straight onto the green

Where as you go off the fairway at ingrebourne you are in gorse or water

Both sides of the fairway are assessed.
What your mate did one time when he hit 350y offline couldn't be more irrelevant.

There is a huge gap in the gorse on the overhead you posted, which happens to be right where the landing zone is - looks like there is over 70 yards (wide) of safe ground there, much of it fairway; and the water is over 30 yards from the centre of the fairway which means it simply doesn't count for very much.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Both sides of the fairway are assessed.
What your mate did one time when he hit 350y offline couldn't be more irrelevant.

There is a huge gap in the gorse on the overhead you posted, which happens to be right where the landing zone is - looks like there is over 70 yards (wide) of safe ground there, much of it fairway; and the water is over 30 yards from the centre of the fairway which means it simply doesn't count for very much.

If you hit anything left of centre on the fairway it will feed down to the water and 80% of the time be in the water. Flying the bunker is the best play if you can hit it. Making the window even smaller

Watch the video and see the tees

 

[wjemather]

If you hit anything left of centre on the fairway it will feed down to the water and 80% of the time be in the water. Flying the bunker is the best play if you can hit it. Making the window even smaller

Wild exaggerations are not helpful (although it does sort of confirm my suspicions about the height of the rough), but the increased risk of sloped ground towards the water is accounted for.
The model scratch golfer isn't carrying the bunker.