Course Rating

[Deleted member 21784]

That's just golfers (still) not understanding what Slope is.

A bit, however slope directly influences handicap

If we had a slope rating of 130 for example then a 93 would equal a 18.4 score diff which reflects the difficulty of the course

It's why I've taken to playing off black tees this summer as that slope is at least 120 with a CR of 74 so a good score is rewarded

 

[rulefan]

The course rater told us it wasn't,

Perhaps the gorse is not it the defined 'Target Area'

Does the gorse affect both the scratch & bogey player? How far is it from the fairway?

 

[Neilds]

Down the side of almost every fairway , adding more now to make the 630 yard par 5 have a gorse lined window to hit for the second shot

Do courses/clubs try to have vanity slopes like some golfers have vanity handicaps? With all that gorse it must be really slow to play.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Do courses/clubs try to have vanity slopes like some golfers have vanity handicaps? With all that gorse it must be really slow to play.

Maybe if we dig a few ditches we might get that

What I find is everyone's handicap is about 2 higher than it should be. Whenever we travel to other courses it's always a case of 40 points plus due to higher handicaps

Weekends I'm told is 4.5 hours. Weekdays I managed it in 3-3.75 depending who I'm with ..

Gorse doesn't make it that slow because a lost ball is lost. Just take a provisional or a drop

 

[rulefan]

Gorse doesn't make it that slow because a lost ball is lost. Just take a provisional or a drop

But it does cost a shot

 

[Deleted member 21784]

But it does cost a shot

Which is why the slope should be vastly higher than 111 frankly

The only explanation I've ever seen is slope is the difference between a scratch golfer and bogey so lower is effecting them both equally

If that's true then the formula for handicap is flawed

 

[D-S]

But it does cost a shot

And a ball.

 

[rulefan]

And a ball.

and possibly distance

 

[Swango1980]

Diving into this, course rating I agree with ...it's the slope that's a made up figure that is flawed

Take 2 courses near me

Top meadow has a few ditches across fairways (easy to lay up or fly over) but because of this they are given a higher slope rating of 137 (par 72 CR 70.9) that's off their white (longest tees) 6171 yards

Ingrebourne (My course) doesn't have ditches. However has a ton of gorse bushes , which if you find (just off line) it's ball lost . However gorse doesn't appear in the slope ratings numbers so doesn't get taken into account .. off our whites (middle tees not even longest) par 72 CR 71.8 (so means it's harder no?) the slope is 111 ..... (Tee length 6633 so even longer)

I get less shots at my place and also I have to break 90 off whites to get a score diff of 18 or below where as go to top meadow you can hit 93 to get a score diff of 18...

Now that's flawed no? The harder CR means the course is harder so why would you need to shoot LOWER to get the same score diff?

If you have ditches running across fairways, they are always "in play". A golfer will need to decide to carry them, or lay up. I've no idea about the course lay out, but I'm assuming they play a large role in the playing of that golf course? And just because they are easy to fly for some, doesn't mean that is true for many others. Some may even be capable, but a strike less than perfect or a bit too much spin and a breeze of wind can be the difference between success and failure.

Whereas gorse bushes may be horrific when you gp in them, and may even kill your round more often than you wish. But, they are generally only in play if you are offline. And, given handicap index is based on your best 40% or rounds, it doesn't really matter what goes on in your worst 60%. On the days you successfully keep the ball on line, and get a bit of luck if you are offline (your good days), are the days you miss the gorse bushes.

At my last course, we had hedges bordering most fairways, and jungle on the other side. Any day you were offline, you score was going to be horrific. But, keep you ball on the fairway, it was ultimately a very easy course. Many shorter holes, flat greens, etc.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

If you have ditches running across fairways, they are always "in play". A golfer will need to decide to carry them, or lay up. I've no idea about the course lay out, but I'm assuming they play a large role in the playing of that golf course? And just because they are easy to fly for some, doesn't mean that is true for many others. Some may even be capable, but a strike less than perfect or a bit too much spin and a breeze of wind can be the difference between success and failure.

Whereas gorse bushes may be horrific when you gp in them, and may even kill your round more often than you wish. But, they are generally only in play if you are offline. And, given handicap index is based on your best 40% or rounds, it doesn't really matter what goes on in your worst 60%. On the days you successfully keep the ball on line, and get a bit of luck if you are offline (your good days), are the days you miss the gorse bushes.

At my last course, we had hedges bordering most fairways, and jungle on the other side. Any day you were offline, you score was going to be horrific. But, keep you ball on the fairway, it was ultimately a very easy course. Many shorter holes, flat greens, etc.

Our greens have at least 2 breaks and extreme slopes

The Pga come 2-3 times a year to the course to host the Essex, east Anglia opens and this year the pga championship

Definitely feel like they wouldn't come if it was easy lol

 

[rulefan]

Which is why the slope should be vastly higher than 111 frankly

The only explanation I've ever seen is slope is the difference between a scratch golfer and bogey so lower is effecting them both equally

If that's true then the formula for handicap is flawed

Not quite. Their Handicap Index is a major factor.
CH = HI x Slope/113.
The higher the HI the greater effect on CH

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Not quite. Their Handicap Index is a major factor.
CH = HI x Slope/113.
The higher the HI the greater effect on CH

Yet when you convert back to score diff for handicap that's where the issue really lies

Personally I think slope rating shouldn't come into score diff

It should be entirely based on CR and score

 

[rulefan]

Diving into this, course rating I agree with ...it's the slope that's a made up figure that is flawed

I'm afraid I missed the significance of this originally.
The Course Rating and Bogey Rating are determined at the same time using the same process, although the table factors are varied according to the ability of the appropriate model player. Why do you say the Slope is 'made up'?

 

[Swango1980]

Our greens have at least 2 breaks and extreme slopes

The Pga come 2-3 times a year to the course to host the Essex, east Anglia opens and this year the pga championship

Definitely feel like they wouldn't come if it was easy lol

It isn't easy tho. You said the middle tees has a course rating of 71.8, nearly a shot higher than the other course you mentioned. What is the CR of your back tees?

Just thinking off the top of my head, Seacroft is a links course near me, that is pretty hard. CR is 72.8. That is 6 shots higher than my last (easy) course (Par is only 1 higher). Yet, the Slope at Seacroft is 122, yet it is 130 at my last course. The Slope of 122 at Seacroft does not mean that it is easier than my last course. You can break down the ratings:

Seacroft CR=72.8, BR=95.4, Slope=122
Previous course: CR=66.8, BR=90.9, Slope=130

So, a scratch golfer is expected to go round Seacroft 6 shots higher than my last place, a bogey golfer 4.5 shots higher. All golfers will take more shots to get round Seacroft, but relative to each other, the lower golfers take more, thus a lower Slope of 122. It isn't so much that Seacroft is "more Difficult" for a low handicapper than a high handicapper, more that my last place is easier for a low handicapper because they are better at staying online and out of the danger at my last place.

 

[nickjdavis]

 

[nickjdavis]

 

[LincolnShep]

An excessively low course rating at one's home course where one submits the most scores is a major benefit to the traveling handicap player, isn't it?

Yes. My 'home' course has a slope of 106 and CR of 2.7 under par for the whites (3.6 under for the yellows). I only play it half a dozen times a year and have only been a member for a couple of years, I've played twelve rounds in total. If my handicap was just based on those rounds, it would be the average of the best four. That would give me an index of 23.6. That's nearly seven shots higher than my actual current index (16.9) - there are ten different courses in my last 20 handicap rounds. The people that play all their handicap rounds at my home course must be deadly when they travel!

 

[Deleted member 21784]

View attachment 57897

Even this shows with a CR of 74.3 (2 over par) the slope is lower than top meadow which doesn't reflect the courses

 

[nickjdavis]

Even this shows with a CR of 74.3 (2 over par) the slope is lower than top meadow which doesn't reflect the courses

You cannot just look at CR in isolation and say the slope is wrong. The slope is governed by the relative difference of the CR and the Bogey Rating. The raters obviously feel that Top Meadow is relatively harder for bogey golfers...probably due to the narrowness of the fairways. The ditches coming in to play on 5 or 6 holes, some very odd fairway shapes. The short par 3 18th where you have to hit between at chute of trees close to the green and over a pond. The 14th where your tee shot is over a lake and then you have an approach to a green with two ponds short left and right....and that's just what I can remember from the last time I played it some 10 years ago.

I only have google earth images to look at for Ingrebourne but it seems its main defence is its length (and as you say...its contoured greens and gorse). In comparison to Top Meadow though, its fairways look generously wide.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

You cannot just look at CR in isolation and say the slope is wrong. The slope is governed by the relative difference of the CR and the Bogey Rating. The raters obviously feel that Top Meadow is relatively harder for bogey golfers...probably due to the narrowness of the fairways. The ditches coming in to play on 5 or 6 holes, some very odd fairway shapes. The short par 3 18th where you have to hit between at chute of trees close to the green and over a pond. The 14th where your tee shot is over a lake and then you have an approach to a green with two ponds short left and right....and that's just what I can remember from the last time I played it some 10 years ago.

I only have google earth images to look at for Ingrebourne but it seems its main defence is its length (and as you say...its contoured greens and gorse). In comparison to Top Meadow though, its fairways look generously wide.

Main issue is top meadow you go offline your on another fairway and can score

You go offline at mine you have to clear the gorse to find another fairway

I played top meadow for years with my grandad. He never was on the right fairway always broke 95 lol