County / Regional Championship Team Event Alongside Individual

[D-S]

At some County and Regional Championships organisers run a team event alongside the main event. The team could be the Club or County - x nominated players aggregate best score combined to win the team trophy.

If the competitors went out in handicap order and that might mean that 2 or 3 players of the same team ended up in the same group. Would that mean that it would render the scores players who had members of their team in the same group unacceptable for handicap?

Normally organisers would ‘fix’ the draw to ensure this wasn’t the case but in exceptional circumstances (withdrawals and injuries) players might end up being paired together either at the last minute or even mid round.

 

[Steven Rules]

I'd like to help but I fear that I may not be understanding the core issues underpinning the question.

What do the Terms of the Competition say?

Or if this is a question about whether there is a limitation on who may be a marker for a player, then that is a Committee matter.

If it is about how players are drawn into groups then that is also a Committee matter.

If it is something else, then someone else will need to take over....

 

[Arthur Wedge]

At some County and Regional Championships organisers run a team event alongside the main event. The team could be the Club or County - x nominated players aggregate best score combined to win the team trophy.

If the competitors went out in handicap order and that might mean that 2 or 3 players of the same team ended up in the same group. Would that mean that it would render the scores players who had members of their team in the same group unacceptable for handicap?

Normally organisers would ‘fix’ the draw to ensure this wasn’t the case but in exceptional circumstances (withdrawals and injuries) players might end up being paired together either at the last minute or even mid round.

All they do is add the scores together so not sure why they wouldn’t be accepted for HC

 

[Voyager EMH]

Played in loads of these over the years. County level, not regional.
It is clear that it is an individual strokeplay tournament played as per those rules (ie: no advice from fellow competitors)

Two competitors from same club drawn together changes nothing. They play individual strokeplay competition rules.

There is no "playing as a team" taking place on the course.
It is merely the best 3 gross scores from competitors at the same club.

All cards must be acceptable for handicapping unless some infringement of individual strokeplay has taken place.

 

[D-S]

My point comes from EG advice re Aggregate Pairs Competitions, where they say that it is ok for an Aggregate Pairs Competition to be acceptable for handicap only if the players do not play in the same group, if they play in separate groups then fine.

This comes from the acceptable format for acceptable scores for handicapping to be individual strokeplay only.

 

[rulefan]

Two competitors from same club drawn together changes nothing. They play individual strokeplay competition rules.

In over 20 years officiating at such County events, I have never seen two competitors from the same club drawn together.

 

[doublebogey7]

Played in loads of these over the years. County level, not regional.
It is clear that it is an individual strokeplay tournament played as per those rules (ie: no advice from fellow competitors)

Two competitors from same club drawn together changes nothing. They play individual strokeplay competition rules.

There is no "playing as a team" taking place on the course.
It is merely the best 3 gross scores from competitors at the same club.

All cards must be acceptable for handicapping unless some infringement of individual strokeplay has taken place.

I can confirm in Leicestershire where the County Amateur Championship in icludes a team prize, scores are acceptable for handicapping. I don't remember ever even considering that it shouldn't be and we have a regional handicap advisor in our ranks. The winning club goes forward to represent the county at EGs Champion club, which Kibworth of this parish won in 2023.

 

[doublebogey7]

In over 20 years officiating at such County events, I have never seen two competitors from the same club drawn together.

Pretty sure we have and never considered that it should not be acceptable for handicapping.

 

[rulie]

Authority over-reach? Somebody said, "Let go of my ears, I know my business!"

 

[D-S]

Thank you for your comments.

I, of course, agree and have experience, the same as everyone's, of Regional and County championships with team and individual competitions being run alongside each other and naturally they have been acceptable for handicapping.

I am just looking for clarity in team and individual competitions running concurrently.

I take from this that if you have an Aggregate Pairs competition and an individual prize as well and if players from the same team play alongside each other then it would be acceptable for handicapping, provided of course they don't breach the advice rule.

 

[rulefan]

Thank you for your comments.

I, of course, agree and have experience, the same as everyone's, of Regional and County championships with team and individual competitions being run alongside each other and naturally they have been acceptable for handicapping.

I am just looking for clarity in team and individual competitions running concurrently.

I take from this that if you have an Aggregate Pairs competition and an individual prize as well and if players from the same team play alongside each other then it would be acceptable for handicapping, provided of course they don't breach the advice rule.

Where did you see the advice in your post #5
However I did find this
However, where members of a team do not play together and the competition is effectively an Individual Competition, such scores must be submitted for Handicapping Purposes.

 

[D-S]

Where did you see the advice in your post #5
However I did find this
However, where members of a team do not play together and the competition is effectively an Individual Competition, such scores must be submitted for Handicapping Purposes.

Advice received direct from EG a couple of years ago.

Where did you find the quote in your post? As this does seem to suggest that if players play together scores are not acceptable.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Advice received direct from EG a couple of years ago.

Where did you find the quote in your post? As this does seem to suggest that if players play together scores are not acceptable.

EG advice again - wonder if by chance they are overreaching again

The Beds county champs is all individual comps

They have a team shield where they just add scores together

If the top three players for the final round are from the same club then they will play together and it’s happened multiple times

 

[doublebogey7]

EG advice again - wonder if by chance they are overreaching again

The Beds county champs is all individual comps

They have a team shield where they just add scores together

If the top three players for the final round are from the same club then they will play together and it’s happened multiple times

I am not sure that though the advice for a competition that is wholly a team aggregate one, is the same EG advice would give for a competition that ostensibly is an indivividual one with a team price tagged on. That as I understand it, is what D-S is asking.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I am not sure that though the advice for a competition that is wholly a team aggregate one, is the same EG advice would give for a competition that ostensibly is an indivividual one with a team price tagged on. That as I understand it, is what D-S is asking.

think there are two situations

A team aggregate score competition- like a waltz or 3 out of 4 etc which are team only and not for HC purposes

Or individual competition where they just use the scores from the individual rounds and have that as a bolt on team comp - thats what I think the OP was about

 

[doublebogey7]

think there are two situations

A team aggregate score competition- like a waltz or 3 out of 4 etc which are team only and not for HC purposes

Or individual competition where they just use the scores from the individual rounds and have that as a bolt on team comp - thats what I think the OP was about

Not as I read it, D-S is referring to aggregate strokplay competitions where a pair playing together simply add their stokeplay or stableford scores together and that is their score for the tournament. The winner pair being the best aggregate score. Nothing to do with AMAMs Waltz or any other scrambles etc. As I understand it these were never qualifying comps beefore WHS and it reamins that way.

That is significantly different from a regular singles strokeplay competition where there is also a prize for the best x number of scores from players representing their club.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not as I read it, D-S is referring to aggregate strokplay competitions where a pair playing together simply add their stokeplay or stableford scores together and that is their score for the tournament. The winner pair being the best aggregate score. Nothing to do with AMAMs Waltz or any other scrambles etc. As I understand it these were never qualifying comps beefore WHS and it reamins that way.

That is significantly different from a regular singles strokeplay competition where there is also a prize for the best x number of scores from players representing their club.

“At some County and Regional Championships organisers run a team event alongside the main event. The team could be the Club or County - x nominated players aggregate best score combined to win the team trophy”


That reads exactly how it’s done in Beds - individual comp with their scores added together - nothing about pairs ?

 

[D-S]

Whether it’s pairs or a team, the issue that makes/made Pairs Aggregate Competitions not acceptable was if the players played in the same group.
If the players played in separate groups then the scores were/are acceptable.
If there is a separate prize for best individual score running concurrently with a Pairs aggregate competition, this would in essence be the same scenario as the County and Regional events we have all been describing.
My point is why is a Pairs Aggregate comp (with concurrent best individual prize) not acceptable when players play in the same group yet the Regional/ County comps with essentially the same composition the scores are acceptable?

 

[doublebogey7]

Whether it’s pairs or a team, the issue that makes/made Pairs Aggregate Competitions not acceptable was if the players played in the same group.
If the players played in separate groups then the scores were/are acceptable.
If there is a separate prize for best individual score running concurrently with a Pairs aggregate competition, this would in essence be the same scenario as the County and Regional events we have all been describing.
My point is why is a Pairs Aggregate comp (with concurrent best individual prize) not acceptable when players play in the same group yet the Regional/ County comps with essentially the same composition the scores are acceptable?

I would guess because that makes the main competition a team one where players are able to advice each other. With the team prize tagged onto a singles comp the players are not able to advice and would be DQ'd from both competitions for doing so.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Whether it’s pairs or a team, the issue that makes/made Pairs Aggregate Competitions not acceptable was if the players played in the same group.
If the players played in separate groups then the scores were/are acceptable.
If there is a separate prize for best individual score running concurrently with a Pairs aggregate competition, this would in essence be the same scenario as the County and Regional events we have all been describing.
My point is why is a Pairs Aggregate comp (with concurrent best individual prize) not acceptable when players play in the same group yet the Regional/ County comps with essentially the same composition the scores are acceptable?

when playing in a singles competition even with a bolt on team you are still playing as an individual- the score that matters is your 18 hole score

Even if you have two players from the same club playing in the same group they won’t be playing as a team , they won’t be taking the best score on that hole or giving lines or advice etc - they will be playing as individuals

they won’t be playing together as a team