Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Hobbit]

It shouldn't be , period. Care homes should be an "arm " of the NHS.
I don't mean the NHS should just take it on as part of their costs and that it is as free as the existing parts of the NHS. No, it needs a funding structure worked out, but the running of care homes in terms of standards, quality of staff etc should be under the NHS.
The businesses have made enough out of old people's problems and their health should not be a source of profit for any in a caring society.
So, in effect, nationalise them - and before anyone starts telling me how nationalised bodies are not run efficiently , then please define efficiently.
Do you mean making a profit, before ensuring proper standards?
Or suddenly closing when the profits dry up and the "business " decides to go into administration? ( too bad for the old folk, can't help what might happen to them)
There are many on here blaming the government for the. Covid- in -care homes -problem, but who may baulk at the word nationalisation , but if covid has proved anything, it is that some institutions of a civilised country should be owned , controlled and run by the Country, for the Country.

Current funding for elderly care is over £16bn but, sadly, a significant portion of that goes to private homes, which look to make a profit from it. And knowing how businesses are structured to make a profit, there's a fair chunk of that disappears to the owners by way of dividends. A well run business will make a gross profit of over 40%, net around 10%.

Nationalise all the homes and you're talking about a lot of money being available that is not being spent on the people that matter.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Scotland's much tighter and more beneficial lockdown possibly lasting just a week then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52678392

 

[Old Skier]

Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

BTW2 Sturgeon is polling over 80% support in Scotland for her lead on Covid19
How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.

Wrong, Wales is pretty similar to England apart from opening garden centers before us and Scotland appears to be changing its mind, would be good if you stopped your anti everything policy. I presume you are happy with the U.K. Governments financial package to help keep Scotland and the rest of us afloat.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't disagree with pretty much everything you're asking for but I do feel your constant push for instant answers is just plain ridiculous. We want the same outcomes but we have to be realistic about how and when we achieve them.

We know from the mortality rate that something went very wrong but what it was, we don't know.

Let's make a few assumptions, dangerous things but bear with me; the 'knowledge' of the disease and how well it transmits was sketchy at best at the turn of the year. Diagnosing something that doesn't always manifest itself very quickly. We could add to the list but let's not stray too far from the known into the unknown. And bearing in mind the number of (still) unknowns, is it wise to push for instant answers?

With the above in mind, the instant answer is to default to the most stringent isolation for the most vulnerable.

But a question? Why does the government hold primary responsibility for what might have gone wrong when the vast majority of Homes are privately owned? We've seen the strategy and guidelines change, and I expect as more is known of the disease, those guidelines will change again.

Ultimately there will be a review, no doubt a Commons Select Committee or Lord XXX(Chilcott-type) Inquiry. It won't happen quick enough for what is happening now, realistically that's impossible. But, equally, I very much doubt any Minister will wilfully make a decision that costs lives. And there's a number of reasons why, 1) who would morally do that? 2) Who would knowing that they're under the microscope by the media, the opposition and the electorate? Who would knowing that there will almost certainly be a very in-depth, post-epidemic?

Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.

 

[Old Skier]

Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.

So you don't want answered just but you do want to know how things could have been done better.

How can anyone give any answers until they get to a conclusion to the problem.

 

[Hobbit]

Not asking for answers - just a bit of openness and honesty about what everyone could have done better or differently - and clarity on how the lessons leant are informing a plan to apply these lessons now - in advance of any second spike. To try and minimise the risk of it happening again, and the impact if it does.

How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?

I don't know, and that's the point.

What I do know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a 'protective ring' around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made this assumption and it proved wrong - we will do this next time'; '...We decided to apply this measure when this happened - but we can now see that as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it then '; '...We asked care homes to do this at this point - but we should have told them to do that at that point'. That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level. The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know exactly what to do next time. And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back. Good Trumpian rhetoric that. Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time. Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost. As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.

 

[Old Skier]

How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?

Because the honesty and openness that he hears from a bunch of highly qualified scientists and government officials do not give him the honesty and openness that he wishes to hear.

 

[DanFST]

How is Johnson polling? last time I looked it was 54% slightly more than half polled had any faith in him.

It was 43% before the GE in December and the Tories got an overwhelming majority.

 

[2blue]

This image just cracks me up.
Add a few expletives & this scenario will be so familiar to any teacher working in an inner-city school. Especially the use of 'Miss' when you're a male teacher.

 

[drdel]

I don't know, and that's the point.

What I do know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a 'protective ring' around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made this assumption and it proved wrong - we will do this next time'; '...We decided to apply this measure when this happened - but we can now see that as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it then '; '...We asked care homes to do this at this point - but we should have told them to do that at that point'. That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level. The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know exactly what to do next time. And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back. Good Trumpian rhetoric that. Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time. Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost. As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.

A lot of words essentially asking questions that you know have no definitive answers, or perhaps it is just a moan.

 

[drdel]

View attachment 30688
This image just cracks me up.
Add a few expletives & this scenario will be so familiar to any teacher working in an inner-city school. Especially the use of 'Miss' when you're a male teacher.

Like a few board meetings I remember!

 

[Hobbit]

I don't know, and that's the point.

What I do know is that I have not heard of any lessons that have been learnt from (as Hancock has just put it) the clear failure of their policy of putting a 'protective ring' around care homes.

I have not heard a minister say such as '...We made this assumption and it proved wrong - we will do this next time'; '...We decided to apply this measure when this happened - but we can now see that as being the wrong timing - next time we'll do it then '; '...We asked care homes to do this at this point - but we should have told them to do that at that point'. That's openness and honesty giving clarity.

Because at some point access restrictions on care homes are likely to be relaxed as the level of the virus in the community reduces to a 'safe' level. The residents of care homes and their relatives must be provided with evidence that the care homes and the government know exactly what to do next time. And so they surely must hear from the government what it was that went wrong that led to the failure of the 'protective ring' policy.

Meanwhile Hancock also tells me that measures must be taken so that I can have my freedoms back. Good Trumpian rhetoric that. Not aware I've really lost any - but good to hear if you are of a mind to bash teachers and their unions resisting children going back to school at this time. Make out that teachers are preventing the return to me of some freedoms that I have lost. As it happens I am not minded to think that Hancock would dream up such a phrase - not his style.

I'm tempted to Foxy you... there's a lot of twaddle in there.

So you want to put words in their mouth. You want them to say "we made the wrong assumption...," and so on.

As for your last para, now that is utter twaddle of the first water. If you don't see the restrictions as curtailing your freedom... You know what, I think you are being deliberately obtuse to bolster your perception of the govt's performance. I'm very tempted to say that the above post is your worst post ever! You can't see that the restrictions are curtailing your freedom? Remind me of why you didn't go to Sheffield. And don't twist it. If those restrictions hadn't been in place you would have gone.

 

[patricks148]

Charities are starting to operate like businesses, but, at the end of the day, it's not a good idea to expect businesses (care homes) to be like charities.

not a suprise to see you prouting this, after all it was the Conservative Gov of the 80's and 90's that led the outsourcing of care homes, where for a great many profit comes before care... a ticking time bomb

 

[IanM]

Heard it this afternoon and it sounds pretty sensible to me.

BTW have you any idea how arrogant your post sounds.
Scotland, NI and Wales are standing together against a UK government that seems to only listen to the views of one country.

Go and check this guys approval rating. Last poll wanted to close the welsh assembly down.

Maybe arrogance is elsewhere by not considering Wales has a different view from Scotland

 

[patricks148]

great side step from MH today when asked the question about Nurses pay by a member of the public... shame like many other tory MPshe had forgotten he clapped cheered when the last motion on THOC on nurses pay was defeated

 

[Deleted member 1740]

How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?

?????? Do you really believe that Bri?

I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. Surely it's in the Nations interest to hear it and should have access to said info.

 

[SocketRocket]

?????? Do you really believe that Bri?

I said last week, I'd like to know what scientific advice they're listening to when they made the decision to soften the lockdown. Surely it's in the Nations interest to hear it and should have access to said info.

I guess the answer to that is SAGE gives the Scientific advice. Do you really expect the details of what they discuss to be published.

 

[ColchesterFC]

How do you know the current crop of Ministers aren't being open and honest, and that the plan going forward isn't based on increasing knowledge of the science?

Because they are politicians!!!!




This is entirely an apolitical post and applies equally to all politicians.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

I guess the answer to that is SAGE gives the Scientific advice. Do you really expect the details of what they discuss to be published.

In a word, Yes. If they're telling us it's safe to go to work etc then surely we as the general public have a right to know what evidence has changed. Or should I just keep schtum,crack on and believe what this government says?

Obviously there's going to be some sensitive information which I could understand to be withheld.