Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[ColchesterFC]

I hope the girl on the left wasn't protesting about her grade in English......

 

[Foxholer]

And labour would have "bankrupted" the country in a way only the Tory's can save.... By doing the same amount of debt but Tory's ofc is necessary and labour is unstable....

A classic 'Tory response' that, I believe, is unwarranted - but is an incredibly effective 'weapon'!
Both parties have made serious financial blunders - and will continue to do so imo! PFI was the worst of the Conservative Party's imo! Labour actually handled the post-Lehman crisis rather well imo, though they still got hammered for 'being in power when it happened'! Some of the Covid initiatives will almost certainly cost huge amounts - but can actually be portrayed positively, so not too much damage.
Mind you, Labour seems, to me, to move significantly 'left' as a consequence, which, imo, has done them no favours. It'll be 'interesting' to see whether the new leader changes the drift into 'unelectability'!
The Conservatives have always been 'guilty' of 'granting contracts to their sponsors/mates', but I'm certain Labour used/provided the same folk too - purely because 'Business' is naturally 'right wing'! So, much of it comes down purely to ideology rather effectiveness imo. Has splitting Water and Power into a myriad of companies been beneficial - to the country as a whole? Likewise has the split of the Railways? TfL seems to run extremely well as mix - The Underground (publicly run I believe) being highly efficient, if regularly 'uncomfortably crowded'!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

But the argument, even though it is a whatabouttery and a gaslighting combination, that previous Govts were essentially no different is irrelevant, even if it cannot be proven to be false. Each Govt has to deal with the challenges it faces, whether those challenges occur as a result of the actions of previous Govts of the same or different flavour or force majeure, and be accountable for them. If we are now at the stage where we expect nothing but incompetence and corruption from any of them, then society is truly doomed

Certainly no whataboutery on my part. Nor meek acceptance of the situation.

Merely sadness that politics should have descended to the level that it has.

And it can only be changed by the electorate making it clear that their vote will be decided by issues and policies.

But whilst "Personality Politics" remains the order of the day I don't foresee any party leader acting unilaterally.

As to proving that the current Government is any better or worse than its predecessors on this issue I will only say that we do not know the answer as ultimately it is all about opinions and perceptions.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

A classic 'Tory response' that, I believe, is unwarranted - but is an incredibly effective 'weapon'!
Both parties have made serious financial blunders - and will continue to do so imo! PFI was the worst of the Conservative Party's imo! Labour actually handled the post-Lehman crisis rather well imo, though they still got hammered for 'being in power when it happened'! Some of the Covid initiatives will almost certainly cost huge amounts - but can actually be portrayed positively, so not too much damage.
Mind you, Labour seems, to me, to move significantly 'left' as a consequence, which, imo, has done them no favours. It'll be 'interesting' to see whether the new leader changes the drift into 'unelectability'!
The Conservatives have always been 'guilty' of 'granting contracts to their sponsors/mates', but I'm certain Labour used/provided the same folk too - purely because 'Business' is naturally 'right wing'! So, much of it comes down purely to ideology rather effectiveness imo. Has splitting Water and Power into a myriad of companies been beneficial - to the country as a whole? Likewise has the split of the Railways? TfL seems to run extremely well as mix - The Underground (publicly run I believe) being highly efficient, if regularly 'uncomfortably crowded'!

Did you miss the sarcasm in my post?

And tfl is a poor example ATM with our bailout .. but mainly because the Tory's cut out grant.. without the grant we needed a bailout and they used it to get more control of the board

One step closer to privatising

 

[Foxholer]

Did you miss the sarcasm in my post?
...

Unfortunately, Yes!

...
And tfl is a poor example ATM with our bailout .. but mainly because the Tory's cut out grant.. without the grant we needed a bailout and they used it to get more control of the board

One step closer to privatising

Ah! Hadn't heard/noticed that. Not altogether certain whether that's good or bad - though I certainly distrust Boris's motives. (Additional) 'Tory'/Business approach at Board level is not, necessarily, a bad thing imo, but I strongly suspect there's more to it than that! Certainly LU been financially unsustainable for months, so a direct - and continuing - bailout was/is/will be inevitable. Presumably, the grant was based on numbers of passengers? Covid has simply made certain services liabilities!

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Unfortunately, Yes!

Ah! Hadn't heard/noticed that. Not altogether certain whether that's good or bad - though I certainly distrust Boris's motives. (Additional) 'Tory'/Business approach at Board level is not, necessarily, a bad thing imo, but I strongly suspect there's more to it than that! Certainly LU been financially unsustainable for months, so a direct - and continuing - bailout was/is/will be inevitable. Presumably, the grant was based on numbers of passengers? Covid has simply made certain services liabilities!

Finances were ver healthy before covid with billions in the bank but in 3 months of covid we burned through to the money we have to keep in bank to cover basic running costs

So we got bailed out with a terrible conditions
Raising congestion charge and making it 7 days a week / until 10 pm
Getting rid of free travel for under 18s and for over 60s (in peak for that one)
Raising fares (agreed with that one)
2 Tories have to sit on the board
All sickness reported to central government

Every other train op company just given money zero conditions

 

[Ethan]

And labour would have "bankrupted" the country in a way only the Tory's can save.... By doing the same amount of debt but Tory's ofc is necessary and labour is unstable....

If Labour had splashed out the same amount of money, I doubt they would have lobbed as much at some of the Tory donors and might have at least spent it with

Certainly no whataboutery on my part. Nor meek acceptance of the situation.

Merely sadness that politics should have descended to the level that it has.

And it can only be changed by the electorate making it clear that their vote will be decided by issues and policies.

But whilst "Personality Politics" remains the order of the day I don't foresee any party leader acting unilaterally.

As to proving that the current Government is any better or worse than its predecessors on this issue I will only say that we do not know the answer as ultimately it is all about opinions and perceptions.

But would you agree that simply dismissing them all as being as bad as each other does little to select out those who have served the country particularly badly?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

If Labour had splashed out the same amount of money, I doubt they would have lobbed as much at some of the Tory donors and might have at least spent it with


But would you agree that simply dismissing them all as being as bad as each other does little to select out those who have served the country particularly badly?

I appreciate that it may seem that way although it was not my intention.

However, my greater concern is how are we to stop this downward spiral?

I see Johnson rightly referred to as a populist PM but then so was Thatcher, so was Blair. What can be done to get the "floating voter" to look beyond the personalities and onto issues and policies.

Until that happens we are likely to see front benches occupied dominating leaders and their acolytes.

 

[Ethan]

I appreciate that it may seem that way although it was not my intention.

However, my greater concern is how are we to stop this downward spiral?

I see Johnson rightly referred to as a populist PM but then so was Thatcher, so was Blair. What can be done to get the "floating voter" to look beyond the personalities and onto issues and policies.

Until that happens we are likely to see from benches occupied dominating leaders and their acolytes.

I detested Thatcher and have mixed feelings about Blair but neither were populists. They both used their personalities and had a style but neither took decisions they thought were in advisable in order to pander to public opinion. Nor did they create a false enemy in the elite.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I detested Thatcher and have mixed feelings about Blair but neither were populists. They both used their personalities and had a style but neither took decisions they thought were in advisable in order to pander to public opinion. Nor did they create a false enemy in the elite.

Thatcher created enemies to suit and Blair was a populist from the point of view of having absolutely no ideology.

He would IMO have quite happily stood as a Conservative if he had thought it would have more quickly led to power.

 

[drdel]

If you look around celebritisation has hit virtually every sector. Newscasters, reporters, presenters, sports personalities, reality candidates, company chair persons, etc use heavy PR to add value to themselves as a 'brand'.

It's unfortunately spread into politics but it's not surprising given the media try to personalise pretty much everything.

 

[Ethan]

Thatcher created enemies to suit and Blair was a populist from the point of view of having absolutely no ideology.

He would IMO have quite happily stood as a Conservative if he had thought it would have more quickly led to power.

Populism isn’t the same as having no ideology, which anyway I don’t think is accurate for Blair. Populism is about convincing put upon people that their lot is all the fault of the elite and the establishment and they will get a voice now. If anything the populism arose from Tory opponents who tried to characterise Blair as that.

Farage is the arch populist of recent times.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Populism isn’t the same as having no ideology, which anyway I don’t think is accurate for Blair. Populism is about convincing put upon people that their lot is all the fault of the elite and the establishment and they will get a voice now. If anything the populism arose from Tory opponents who tried to characterise Blair as that.

Farage is the arch populist of recent times.

We will just have to agree to disagree on Blair.

I have the same level of contempt for him and his lying friend Campbell that I hold for Thatcher.

"Things can only get better!"

What a joke.

 

[Ethan]

We will just have to agree to disagree on Blair.

I have the same level of contempt for him and his lying friend Campbell that I hold for Thatcher.

"Things can only get better!"

What a joke.

That’s all fine. My point is basically that courting popularity and being a populist are not the same thing. You can hate him but that doesn’t make him a populist.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That’s all fine. My point is basically that courting popularity and being a populist are not the same thing. You can hate him but that doesn’t make him a populist.

He was certainly seen by many as often adopting a populist style.

That may or may not define him as a populist.

Using a strict definition of populism it might be said that Western Europe (inc; UK) has not seen a true populist leader since WW2.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.

 

[Mudball]

More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.

Lets not jump the gun... A good & stable leader with a contrarian approach would say, we should not test so many people... there seems to be an increase in cases as soon as testing is increased.

 

[Ethan]

More good news on T cells and cross protection, along with 'easier' testing starting to come on line :-

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0092-8674%2820%2931008-4

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-wales-53764640

We really need to get this stuff rolled out as soon as possible and letting people know and find were we are and get the economy moving better.

The T Cell story is the real story of immunity. There are some who think that we are approaching herd immunity through the combination of antibodies and T Cell activation. I hope they are right, but would need to see better evidence to be convinced.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Lets not jump the gun... A good & stable leader with a contrarian approach would say, we should not test so many people... there seems to be an increase in cases as soon as testing is increased.

Not sure if you're being somewhat sarcastic here, but

As I understand this, it is not testing for those who have Covid, it's testing for those with antibodies and/or T cells. I.e those who have had Covid some time previous. Thus giving an idea of the level of immunity in the population.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And yet another U-turn...what an utter shambles and still further evidence of a completely incompetent government.

Williamson is responsible for Ofqual - if he didn't know of the furore that was likely then why not? If he did know of the likely furore then why did he let it happen? - then double down on his decision when the issue exploded. And then - along with his boss- he told us that the Sturgeon's Scottish U-turn was WRONG and not right for England. And that's what they are now doing. Honest to god.

And as usual - no personal apology yet from Williamson. Oh he's sorry for the upset that has come about - but nothing in respect of any notion of taking responsibility. In the end he is totally responsible - he is the Education Secretary. He should resign - but most probably he won't such is the level of arrogance of too many in this government.