Cook and Trott Out

[Dan2501]

You'd seriously consider Borthwick over Moeen? A bloke who has never been that good with the ball, and now plays primarily as a batsman? Yet to take a Championship wicket this season from 3 games and is yet to bowl more than 10 overs in an innings. He is a part-timer, not Moeen.

Not necessarily whats he done wrong, but he is a part time spinner who England are trying to use as a frontline spinner. One decent home summer against 2 very poor sides gives him the role for a bit, but personally dont see him as a long term option as anything more than a batter who bowls which is what he has always been for Worcs. Expect NZ and especially Australia to go after him this summer, if there is no help from the tracks he is going to be under a lot of pressure

How much have you watched of Moeen Ali? It really annoys me that people call him a part-time spinner. Moeen has not been a part-time spinner since 2009. He's bowled over 1000 balls every summer since 2010. He works incredibly hard on his bowling, and considers himself a front-line spin option, as do the guys in the England set-up. He bowled superbly last year, and was very unlucky not to pick up more wickets against Sri Lanka, and then was excellent against India, the country that produce the best players of spin-bowling in the world. One bad showing on a very flat track, when he's just recovered from injury and had no bowling should not mean he's a sub-standard bowler. Moeen is a frontline spinner, and is definitely good enough to be part of a 4-man bowling attack.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How much have you watched of Moeen Ali? It really annoys me that people call him a part-time spinner. Moeen has not been a part-time spinner since 2009. He's bowled over 1000 balls every summer since 2010. He works incredibly hard on his bowling, and considers himself a front-line spin option, as do the guys in the England set-up. He bowled superbly last year, and was very unlucky not to pick up more wickets against Sri Lanka, and then was excellent against India, the country that produce the best players of spin-bowling in the world. One bad showing on a very flat track, when he's just recovered from injury and had no bowling should not mean he's a sub-standard bowler. Moeen is a frontline spinner, and is definitely good enough to be part of a 4-man bowling attack.

26 wickets in 8 tests doesn't suggest front line spinner and it's clear when you watch him bowl he isn't a front line international test spinner - first clas record isn't much better - 173 wickets from 124 games at an average of 40 ! ( 11 thousand balls )

He bowls too many long hops , doesn't get enough spin , he doesn't frighten batsmen , he doesn't have that looping flight or the change of pace to get the batter thinking. He will tak occasional wickets late in the innings when the batsmen get tired and lazy.

 

[Dan2501]

I completely disagree. Last summer he was accurate, turned the ball, was beating the bat on both sides, has the doosra in his locker (a ball no-one else in England can bowl) and looked constantly threatening. He was poor against the West Indies, but was superb against India. He was one of the key men in winning us the series, and took vital wickets at key moments in matches. People seem to have forgotten that performance against India very quickly, a series where he bowled over 100 overs.

 

[fundy]

Ali is a perfectly decent part time spinner. With regards to being a dedicated spinner, he doesn't hit the spot enough, he doesn't build pressure, he doesn't get a spinners loop, he doesn't get sufficient turn. A number of his wickets last year, IMO, came from batsmen not taking him seriously and getting themselves out. Now that is an opinion but I don't see a threat in his bowling. Fine in one day but in test cricket it is not enough.

Agree again with Fundy about a bare cupboard which is another reason why not playing Rashid in the WI was unfathomable. We could have found out if he was good enough and if he was he could have got confidence from playing and bowling. If not then the search would continue.

The Rashid decision was made purely based on the warm up game, where on all accounts he was struggling to hit the cut strip, over his record from county cricket that got him picked. Once they picked him for the tour he definitely shouldve been given the gig, and not to pick him on a really dry one at Barbados was utterly scandalous. Hes another I'll be very surprised is good enough, but theres really only one way to find out

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I completely disagree. Last summer he was accurate, turned the ball, was beating the bat on both sides, has the doosra in his locker (a ball no-one else in England can bowl) and looked constantly threatening. He was poor against the West Indies, but was superb against India. He was one of the key men in winning us the series, and took vital wickets at key moments in matches. People seem to have forgotten that performance against India very quickly, a series where he bowled over 100 overs.

Then you must have seen a different Ali to me

Whilst he did well - no denying that , he didn't bowl like an international main spinner - he caught a few by surprise and got a few wickets with one 5er in the tests.

If he starts as the main spinner then we won't have someone who will frighten bowlers.

His record doesn't stand out in any shape or form

 

[Dan2501]

I would be very surprised if he didn't start against New Zealand, so I guess we'll wait and see, but I would be shocked if he wasn't back looking like a world-class spinner again by the end of the NZ series.

Double-ton up for KP. Magnificent innings considering Surrey's collapse, has contributed well over half their runs. Would love to see him back smashing the Aussies around this summer! #BringBackKP

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I would be very surprised if he didn't start against New Zealand, so I guess we'll wait and see, but I would be shocked if he wasn't back looking like a world-class spinner again by the end of the NZ series.

Double-ton up for KP. Magnificent innings considering Surrey's collapse, has contributed well over half their runs. Would love to see him back smashing the Aussies around this summer! #BringBackKP

Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali. Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali. Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.

Why is the suggestion of Dockerall amusing ?

He is a young lad who can get lots of variation in terms of flight , spin and pace on the ball - can certainly tie down an end

Just needs to get a consistent injury free run going and more games under his belt

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Why is the suggestion of Dockerall amusing ?

He is a young lad who can get lots of variation in terms of flight , spin and pace on the ball - can certainly tie down an end

Just needs to get a consistent injury free run going and more games under his belt

I believe that he has only taken approx 30 first class wickets in the last two seasons, so not exactly a compelling case for his inclusion in the Test side.

IMO a lot more games and even more wickets are needed before the selectors should be looking in his direction.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I believe that he has only taken approx 30 first class wickets in the last two seasons, so not exactly a compelling case for his inclusion in the Test side.

IMO a lot more games and even more wickets are needed before the selectors should be looking in his direction.

As been previously mentioned I remember when Tres was called up - he hadn't set county cricket alight for a number of years but was clear he had obvious talent

Dockrell has had some injury issues over the past 12 months and currently regained fitness and form with the 2XI - ability wise he IMO has the potential to be a top class spinner

 

[fundy]

Bit different scoring runs against the worst county in the Championship compared with NZ & the Aussies.

As for England's bowling I agree we do not have a top line spinner available to us so we have little option but to stick with Mo Ali. Must admit I thought the suggestion of Dockerall was quite amusing.

Stokes is a strange one, at times he looks like a world beater and at others looks like a panel-beater. His averagaes in Test cricket are the wrong way round for him ever to be considered an all-rounder. 29 with the bat and 39 with the ball says it all really.

It sure is but arent too many who have the ability to get 250 in an inns when no one else gets to 50. If nothing else the timing is the last thing Strauss et all wouldve wanted

 

[Dan2501]

I think we should wait and see what Moeen does against the Kiwis before thinking of chucking someone like Dockrell in.

KP going mental now, poor Ben Raine getting smashed around, his last over went for 16. Pietersen now 252*. Fair play to him. He's cancelled his IPL and Caribbean contracts and said he's going to try and force his way in, and boy is he making a statement. 170 in the pre-season match, and now this. Magnificent innings at such a good time.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think we should wait and see what Moeen does against the Kiwis before thinking of chucking someone like Dockrell in.

KP going mental now, poor Ben Raine getting smashed around, his last over went for 16. Pietersen now 252*. Fair play to him. He's cancelled his IPL and Caribbean contracts and said he's going to try and force his way in, and boy is he making a statement. 170 in the pre-season match, and now this. Magnificent innings at such a good time.

I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done

 

[fundy]

I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done

assume you mean be our best batsman of the last decade and talk out about the horrific way he was treated by so called management?

 

[Dan2501]

I reckon it's time for acceptance that he won't be returning to the England set up regardless of the runs he scored.

Nothing he does now will ever take away what he has already done

I will never accept that. I'm a huge KP fanboy, and I think England would be mad not to select him if he keeps up this form. He's one of the best we've ever had, and brings that fear factor to the England team. He'd be a great boost to our side in all forms of the game.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

assume you mean be our best batsman of the last decade and talk out about the horrific way he was treated by so called management?

Horrific ? Ahhh poor KP - constantly putting himself before the team - requesting that he be allowed to go play IPL instead of playing for England - falling out with every team he has played for and slating everyone in the England set up in his book - slating his own captain and current coach via text to the opposition whilst they were playing against them - scheming to get coaches fired -

Being allowed to play for England after walking away from his country of birth has allowed him to become a multi millionaire.

Whilst ability wise he has been one of the best we have had - attitude wise one of the worst.

KP has always been about what's best for KP not always what's best for his team.

He will be remembered as a great batsmen who was part of some wonderful winning teams but lots of issues surrounding him - time to move on from him

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I will never accept that. I'm a huge KP fanboy, and I think England would be mad not to select him if he keeps up this form. He's one of the best we've ever had, and brings that fear factor to the England team. He'd be a great boost to our side in all forms of the game.

Think you will have to accept it - his time has been and gone now.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Forgot to add that it's about time Jack Brooks was given a go

 

[Dan2501]

326*. Come on KP. He will force his way in!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

326*. Come on KP. He will force his way in!

Based on one innings against mediocre bowling and being dropped 5 times !

It's a great innings but come on its his first 100 since 2013 I believe