Computer Memory

[road2ruin]

Hoping someone computer minded can answer the following.

I have an HP All in One PC which is great however it struggles speed wise with some of the new programs I’m running especially when other things are open at the same time.

It currently has 8gb of RAM which can be upgraded to 16. I know what type of memory I need so that’s all good however I wonder what the difference is in the prices? HP want me to pay about £150 for the additional memory however if I Google the exact same thing I can pick it up online from a legit looking place for £30. Same spec etc.

Are there any dangers in going down the cheaper route?

 

[GreiginFife]

The HP memory is just a rip off. Memory is memory by speed and latency.
All in ones mostly use SODIMM (laptop memory) and is likely to be DDR4 2166 or 2400 if its a more recent model.
As long as you match the speed and, to a lesser extent, the latency then you will be fine.

One point to note is that nearly every HP AiO system that I have worked on don't run dual channel memory. So it would be 16GB but still in single channel mode regardless of being 2 banks.

IMO most of your speed issues won't be entirely memory bound. The main threat to all in one systems is thermal throttling on the CPU.

 

[Jimaroid]

No danger within reason. I’d steer clear of too good to be true deals, ebay etc. as there is a lot of stolen memory and SSDs floating around lately.

Crucial are good, they list almost everything and check for compatible memory for peace of mind too https://uk.crucial.com/

Memory alone might not be the problem but it’s a good place to start. 8GB isn’t enough these days.

 

[Dibby]

If you have the right type and frequency for your motherboard, assuming you're not doing anything like gaming where it is really taxed, you'll probably be fine with the cheaper stuff.

That said, how you you know that memory is your bottleneck?

 

[DanFST]

which programs? I'd be surprised if 8gb wasn't enough. Are you sure what ram you actually need and that the mobo has slots for additional to run in dual channel?

 

[GreiginFife]

which programs? I'd be surprised if 8gb wasn't enough. Are you sure what ram you actually need and that the mobo has slots for additional to run in dual channel?

As above, majority of HP all in ones that I have worked on or upgraded don't support dual channel. They usually have two banks (sometimes one is soldered).

The memory controllers aren't the greatest in them either so the memory isn't utilised all that well, but I maintain that thermal throttling will be causing as much of an issue as the memory will. I recently worked on a 22-0000-na and the cooling system was way below adequate.

 

[road2ruin]

Thank you for the quick responses.

Firstly, my assumption that more memory would help was simply based on the fact that if I'm using something like Photoshop then have other programs along with Chrome open the computer really slows down. If I open the task manager it shows that 90% or so of the memory is being used. I have run the usual things to tidy up the computer but that doesn't really seem to help.

Secondly, in terms of what I am running at the moment, this is the info about the memory (https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/c04348272)

• Dual channel memory architecture
• Two DDR3 SO-DIMMs (204-pin) sockets
• Supports PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600)
• Supports 1 GB, 2 GB, 4 GB and 8 GB DDR3 SO-DIMMs

Mine is 64bit so can be upgraded to a max of 16gb. I assumed from the above (bullet point 2) that I would have an existing 8gb memory card in one slot and I'd just be slotting in a second 8gb one, is that not the case?

Obviously I'd rather not chuck any money at this if it's not going to solve the issue regardless of expensive vs cheap memory!

 

[DanFST]

As above, majority of HP all in ones that I have worked on or upgraded don't support dual channel. They usually have two banks (sometimes one is soldered).

The memory controllers aren't the greatest in them either so the memory isn't utilised all that well, but I maintain that thermal throttling will be causing as much of an issue as the memory will. I recently worked on a 22-0000-na and the cooling system was way below adequate.

Agreed, Guessing it's also in need of a clean and new thermal paste!

 

[GreiginFife]

Thank you for the quick responses.

Firstly, my assumption that more memory would help was simply based on the fact that if I'm using something like Photoshop then have other programs along with Chrome open the computer really slows down. If I open the task manager it shows that 90% or so of the memory is being used. I have run the usual things to tidy up the computer but that doesn't really seem to help.

Secondly, in terms of what I am running at the moment, this is the info about the memory (https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/c04348272)

• Dual channel memory architecture
• Two DDR3 SO-DIMMs (204-pin) sockets
• Supports PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600)
• Supports 1 GB, 2 GB, 4 GB and 8 GB DDR3 SO-DIMMs

Mine is 64bit so can be upgraded to a max of 16gb. I assumed from the above (bullet point 2) that I would have an existing 8gb memory card in one slot and I'd just be slotting in a second 8gb one, is that not the case?

Obviously I'd rather not chuck any money at this if it's not going to solve the issue regardless of expensive vs cheap memory!

Ok will address each bullet individually;

• Dual channel memory architecture - Doesn't actually mean that memory will run in dual channel. It's just one of the annoyances about memory.
• Two DDR3 SO-DIMMs (204-pin) sockets - DDR3 1600 is already quite slow, you will see gains but they will be marginal.
• Supports PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600) - This is the memory speed you need to stick with. You can get faster memory but it will be restricted to 1600 and possibly detrimental.

You are right in that all you need to do is populate the empty bank with a module of 8GB and that will give you 16GB. 8GB will run you about £35-£40 and as above, you will see marginal gains but I wouldn't hold your breath for massive improvements.

Memory modules are, in the main, manufactured by three companies, Hynix, Micron and Samsung. So if you buy Crucial (for example) then you will be getting Micron memory, Kingston tens to use Hynix. Without going in to "dies" they are much a muchness.

I wouldn't be putting a lot of cash in to an AiO system as you simply cannot get away from thermal issues.

Edit to add; To monitor temps, install a utility called HWMonitor and use it to watch your temps as you start yo ramp up the usage. There is a direct correlation between CPU/GPU/RAM usage and temperature. CPUs, especially laptop CPUs, are especially sensitive to thermal throttling.

 

[road2ruin]

Ok will address each bullet individually;

• Dual channel memory architecture - Doesn't actually mean that memory will run in dual channel. It's just one of the annoyances about memory.
• Two DDR3 SO-DIMMs (204-pin) sockets - DDR3 1600 is already quite slow, you will see gains but they will be marginal.
• Supports PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600) - This is the memory speed you need to stick with. You can get faster memory but it will be restricted to 1600 and possibly detrimental.

You are right in that all you need to do is populate the empty bank with a module of 8GB and that will give you 16GB. 8GB will run you about £35-£40 and as above, you will see marginal gains but I wouldn't hold your breath for massive improvements.

Memory modules are, in the main, manufactured by three companies, Hynix, Micron and Samsung. So if you buy Crucial (for example) then you will be getting Micron memory, Kingston tens to use Hynix. Without going in to "dies" they are much a muchness.

I wouldn't be putting a lot of cash in to an AiO system as you simply cannot get away from thermal issues.

Thank you Greig, that's really useful to know. I guess if the gains are marginal then I'll have to rethink, in my head I had visions of large performance increases! Final question, is there anything I can do about the thermal issues or is that just a problem with AiO systems?

 

[GreiginFife]

Thank you Greig, that's really useful to know. I guess if the gains are marginal then I'll have to rethink, in my head I had visions of large performance increases! Final question, is there anything I can do about the thermal issues or is that just a problem with AiO systems?

You can help to minimise them, as Dan says above, cleaning (removing dust) and reapplying thermal paste to the heatsink will help but one of the design flaws of All in One systems is that they are aesthetically designed rather than practicality designed and this means the slimmer a machine gets, the less airflow can be achieved. By monitoring your temps using the likes of HWMonitor, you can see where your usage causes issues.

You will always, sadly, suffer from thermal throttling.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Just seen this thread after a spammer posted

How old is the PC ? I strongly suspect it doesnt have a SSD hard drive and also what is the processor?

 

[GreiginFife]

Just seen this thread after a spammer posted

How old is the PC ? I strongly suspect it doesnt have a SSD hard drive and also what is the processor?

It's an all-in-one Phil, carrying a Haswell i7 mobility chip. The thing has a 45W TDP and in a chassis that narrow thermal issues are going to kill it no matter what he does with the storage.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

It's an all-in-one Phil, carrying a Haswell i7 mobility chip. The thing has a 45W TDP and in a chassis that narrow thermal issues are going to kill it no matter what he does with the storage.

So not fit for purpose then, but probably looks nice

Isn’t Haswell 4th generation? Which would put it at 6 or 7 years old,

Mobility chip = chopped off at the knees so it doesn’t melt the motherboard

Nothing can be done to fix this, the machine has run its course, you certainly don’t want to be spending any real money on it

You still can’t beat a desktop for performance and longevity ?

 

[GreiginFife]

So not fit for purpose then, but probably looks nice

Isn’t Haswell 4th generation? Which would put it at 6 or 7 years old,

Mobility chip = chopped off at the knees so it doesn’t melt the motherboard

Nothing can be done to fix this, the machine has run its course, you certainly don’t want to be spending any real money on it

You still can’t beat a desktop for performance and longevity ?

These types of system are designed to please the eye and save space, and from that point of view, they fit the bill really well.
That convenience comes at a cost to performance (as do laptops).

Haswell is indeed 4th gen, and in this case whilst the 4770T isn't a full blown mobility chip (U series) it is that bizarre middle of the road solution where its neither one thing nor the other. And in a case that is only marginally bigger than a laptop case, 45W is way too much power draw with no adequate cooling solution.

I think later HP all in one systems did move to the U series (Ultra low power) which dropped the TDP another 20W and that made more sense but then came with a whole new set of performance restrictions.

Increasing the memory and installing a SSD will give marginal gains and see a little longevity added to the machine's life. But its good money after bad at this point IMO.

I agree, nothing gives better performance than a desktop system. And its the key reason that when giving advice on what to buy the only use case I put forward for a laptop is the mobility is a must.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

These types of system are designed to please the eye and save space, and from that point of view, they fit the bill really well.
That convenience comes at a cost to performance (as do laptops).

Haswell is indeed 4th gen, and in this case whilst the 4770T isn't a full blown mobility chip (U series) it is that bizarre middle of the road solution where its neither one thing nor the other. And in a case that is only marginally bigger than a laptop case, 45W is way too much power draw with no adequate cooling solution.

I think later HP all in one systems did move to the U series (Ultra low power) which dropped the TDP another 20W and that made more sense but then came with a whole new set of performance restrictions.

Increasing the memory and installing a SSD will give marginal gains and see a little longevity added to the machine's life. But its good money after bad at this point IMO.

I agree, nothing gives better performance than a desktop system. And its the key reason that when giving advice on what to buy the only use case I put forward for a laptop is the mobility is a must.

Absolutely
Fraggers Rule Of Thumb has always been "Only buy a laptop if you need mobile computing or if you do not have space for a desktop"

Although to be fair a decent laptop spec with a big enough SSD will give you around 7 years of good service which is on a par with a decent desktop

Ive lost count of the number of "static" laptops ive seen in my time, total waste

 

[GreiginFife]

Absolutely
Fraggers Rule Of Thumb has always been "Only buy a laptop if you need mobile computing or if you do not have space for a desktop"

Although to be fair a decent laptop spec with a big enough SSD will give you around 7 years of good service which is on a par with a decent desktop

Ive lost count of the number of "static" laptops ive seen in my time, total waste

Totally, except the middle section gives a little misdirection IMO, after 2-3 years a laptop will suffer far more performance degradation than a desktop of the same (or slightly lesser spec), so whilst lifespan may be the same, I wouldn't suggest they would be on par at the end of that period.

Space for a desktop is an interesting one for me as most people think of "big box" desktop systems but in reality I probably build 3 or 4 small form factor systems (using "full size" components) for every 1 big box gaming system. So space is less of an issue these days.

I agree about "static" laptops, total waste of money.

 

[Rooter]

That was a blast from the past reading that, thanks Greig! My first proper job was for a Memory company, back when I was selling 16MB SIMMs for 80 quid plus each! Them were the days!

 

[GreiginFife]

That was a blast from the past reading that, thanks Greig! My first proper job was for a Memory company, back when I was selling 16MB SIMMs for 80 quid plus each! Them were the days!

Yeah, I remember when 16MB of page file was considered "rich person" territory.
Fast forward to now and my everyday/gaming system is running 64GB of 3600Mhz RAM.

In fact the cache on my CPU is 35MB so more than the entire system memory on my first proper PC

 

[ScienceBoy]

Fast forward to now and my everyday/gaming system is running 64GB of 3600Mhz RAM.

I have 16GB 2666...