Club's compensation package for lockdown 3.

[5OTT]

1st lockdown nothing.
2nd Lockdown the club have frozen our membership rates for the year and extended the membership period by one month.
I understand that is more than many other places but when we have been locked down for 3 months it doesn't sound that great.

 

[Kennysarmy]

Just out of interest why would this not apply to me at my proprietary club?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just out of interest why would this not apply to me at my proprietary club?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

Why would it apply to you ?

They are offering a compensation to all their members for the loss of services during lockdown- they are satisfying any obligations. You have made the choice to leave the club - why should they change that compensation to suit people who don’t want to stay at the club ?

 

[Imurg]

If you're delving into the lion's pit that is the Law then you need to get someone on it who knows what they're talking about..not a bunch of stir crazy golfers..

 

[evemccc]

A quick cursory reading of this would suggest (to me at least) that golf club members would be entitled to some form of rebate for November, January-March of legally enforced lockdown

The golf club cannot provide the service (through no fault of its own) - due to govt rules

And yes - as @Imurg suggests, any legal minds on here?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Because the product being offered i.e. the facility to play golf does not come with a guarantee of availability.

A particularly harsh winter, for instance, could lead to the facility not being available for weeks on end.

 

[evemccc]

Because the product being offered i.e. the facility to play golf does not come with a guarantee of availability.

A particularly harsh winter, for instance, could lead to the facility not being available for weeks on end.

And having read the pertinent parts of the govt website relating to ‘ongoing contracts’ — it still appears that members would be entitled to at least part refund

The govt enforced lockdown rules mandate that courses have to close — irrespective of weather — that is the overriding reason, the only relevant reason in this case — why ‘ongoing contracts cannot be fulfilled’ —- ipso facto, and according to the govt article above, members are entitled to recompense

 

[SammmeBee]

Yep - here’s your money and now bugger off and play golf somewhere else.......

 

[evemccc]

Yep - here’s your money and now bugger off and play golf somewhere else.......

That sort of fear-mongering / leveraged threat wouldn’t wash with me whatsoever

Given I only joined as a Full a week before lockdown, that’s fine by me - I’m not giving up a load of lifelong golfing friends

There are plenty of courses nearby and plenty of scope to be a Nomad who plays green-fee golf

Besides, I work in the week, and have other hobbies / commitments at wkds, so being a green-fee golfer isn’t the end of the world for me

So i am not really sure what you’re aiming at..?

 

[SammmeBee]

That sort of fear-mongering / leveraged threat wouldn’t wash with me whatsoever

Given I only joined as a Full a week before lockdown, that’s fine by me - I’m not giving up a load of lifelong golfing friends

There are plenty of courses nearby and plenty of scope to be a Nomad who plays green-fee golf

Besides, I work in the week, and have other hobbies / commitments at wkds, so being a green-fee golfer isn’t the end of the world for me

So i am not really sure what you’re aiming at..?

Then it shouldn’t bother you then but it took a lot of words to say it didn’t. Get a solicitor to write a letter for you and you should get enough back to pay them for their services and have a enough left over for a sleeve of Vices.....

 

[Deleted member 18588]

And having read the pertinent parts of the govt website relating to ‘ongoing contracts’ — it still appears that members would be entitled to at least part refund

The govt enforced lockdown rules mandate that courses have to close — irrespective of weather — that is the overriding reason, the only relevant reason in this case — why ‘ongoing contracts cannot be fulfilled’ —- ipso facto, and according to the govt article above, members are entitled to recompense

Makes no difference.

There is no breach of contract. The contract does not provide unfettered access.

 

[DanFST]

Then it shouldn’t bother you then but it took a lot of words to say it didn’t. Get a solicitor to write a letter for you and you should get enough back to pay them for their services and have a enough left over for a sleeve of Vices.....

What course do you own?

You talk pretty poorly to anyone who has a different opinion with you on this subject.

 

[SammmeBee]

What course do you own?

You talk pretty poorly to anyone who has a different opinion with you on this subject.

Lol! If you don’t like an opinion then don’t ask for one!

If 2 parties disagree then it can always be settles via a legal route and on eventual ruling, whichever way it is, there will be a cost to 1, probably both parties, and a concession in the other direction. I’d rather carry in playing golf where I do rather than quibble over a few hundred quid.....

 

[Kennysarmy]

Makes no difference.

There is no breach of contract. The contract does not provide unfettered access.

From the complex terms and conditions:

We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

From the complex terms and conditions:

We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.

What income has the Club received from other sources?

No green fees.
No societies/corporate days.
No range fees
No bar sales
No catering

Only membership fees coming in to meet admin staff salaries, reduced greenstaff wages, other costs such as machinery servicing and repairs, course materials, rates and, if applicable, rent, insurances etc;

Maybe your Club had none of these costs although I think that is unlikely.

One thing is certain, they won't have had any income from the sources I listed.

 

[clubchamp98]

Would the club be entitled to any government grants.
Most businesses would be?

 

[Bdill93]

No comms still - I dont think we are being given anything this time around and to be honest im not fussed at all.

My club, its owners and all the staff are worth every penny I pay. They can have my fees no questions asked. Cant wait to see them again soon!

 

[Kennysarmy]

What income has the Club received from other sources?

No green fees.
No societies/corporate days.
No range fees
No bar sales
No catering

Only membership fees coming in to meet admin staff salaries, reduced greenstaff wages, other costs such as machinery servicing and repairs, course materials, rates and, if applicable, rent, insurances etc;

Maybe your Club had none of these costs although I think that is unlikely.

One thing is certain, they won't have had any income from the sources I listed.

I guess the flip side is when they have amazing months and make £10,000's from green fees, societies/corporate days, range fees, bar sales & catering - is the money ploughed back in to the club or taken as better profits for the owners?

 

[chrisd]

From the complex terms and conditions:

We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.

From the complex terms and conditions:

We reserve the right to reserve the facilities at any time for the purposes of conferences, weddings, social events and activities.
We reserve the right to close the course in full or in part or otherwise to restrict access onto the course at our sole discretion. This may happen at any time and without notice, on a temporary basis which may be for an extended period of time, due to inclement weather, repair, maintenance, development, alteration or any other reason determined by the Complex Manager.
Any such closure or restriction shall not entitle any member to any refund of any fees, subscription or other sums paid

I'd argue the nearly 3 month closure falls outside those terms and conditions as it was not the complex who closed the course, but the Government.

I'm not necessarily going to pursue a legal case as someone has kindly stated we're only talking about £225. However it is interesting that the club has taken the stance it has and like so many travel firms during lockdown 1 is perhaps not being entirely "honest" with it's customers?

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. Yes, they have come up with a compensation package and I'm sure most members will accept it - most people it's anything for an easy life and what chance have we got against the complex. However, if the law is on my side and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of if it is or not, why would I not ask for a cash refund rather than bar credit for a complex I'm not going to be returning to very often?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.

Quite clearly you may have to go to a small claims court to argue your case and having done a number of cases myself the work needed to present the case, the stress etc wouldn't be worth £225 imo. I currently work in a leisure industry setting and even whilst everyone, but me, is 100% furloughed there are any number of bill's still coming in water, electricity, phone, insurance etc etc. so if there's no income I'm pretty sure that there will likely be a thumping loss at the year end. If, of course, they cant pay debts as the become due then they would probably call in administrators and lose the business so cash in bank is pretty vital

I personally agree that your bar credit should be refunded and fully understand your view on a private club compared to a member club but I'm in a member club who are making no concessions but if I were to leave I'd get nothing and personally see little difference as a member - I'm only a member as long as I pay, exactly the same as a limited company member. In fact all of our Club is run under the umbrella of a limited company, which is quite normal now, as I see it there is very little difference in the two different types of club except member clubs have more say over the day to day running

I certainly wouldn't make too much fuss and just go somewhere else as, at least, you can always go back if you find that the grass isn't greener.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I guess the flip side is when they have amazing months and make £10,000's from green fees, societies/corporate days, range fees, bar sales & catering - is the money ploughed back in to the club or taken as better profits for the owners?

That is completely different question and has more to do with the owners' business acumen.