Club's compensation package for lockdown 3.

[Kennysarmy]

Not sure as my contract law is a bit out of date. Worst case for a club is that the ruling is that the contract was for 12 months of golf, by failing to provide that, the contract is frustrated in its entirety and so a refund on the full year's fees is due. Sadly I suspect that it is only a matter of time before someone decides to challenge this in court and so clubs may be wary to do something to keep members on side rather than risk a prejudicial ruling, that or England Golf and the other national bodies may want to take the advice of a barrister now on likely outcomes.

When I asked England Golf about it - this was their response:

Hi , England Golf has no jurisdiction on membership subscriptions. These are a private agreement between each club and it's members.

 

[GB72]

Interesting! I personally doubt the legality ( I am not a lawyer) of a contract that offers this but if a contract between Club and player is offered and renewed annually the owners surely could indicate that previous year members would be offered different terms than others who may be newly joining. Does a new contract have to be " fair and equitable " compared to a previous one?

I am a lawyer, though not in the area in question. The argument would be that the compensation would be for breach of the previous contract and so to include in the compensation in a subsequent contract may not be acceptable.

 

[GB72]

When I asked England Golf about it - this was their response:

Hi , England Golf has no jurisdiction on membership subscriptions. These are a private agreement between each club and it's members.

Totally agree that they have no jurisdiction but it may be something that they should be seeking general advice on so as they can best advise their union members.

 

[jim8flog]

This thread really has split opinion, and probably anyone coming from a members club where the money in is wholly invested in the course and facilities must be wondering WTF. However, this is a complex run for profit and I really don't see why, if it's the case that 100's of members direct debits have just gone to pay the salaries of the owners when it appears little or no work was done on the course during lockdown. I'm not a charity, yes I've chosen to go elsewhere this coming season, but if gym memberships are refunding direct debits I really don't see the difference in this case. Yes, gyms can lock the door and furlough everyone but it appears that's pretty much the case here; bar staff, kitchen staff, pro-shop staff, driving range staff and I'd hazard a guess the green-staff on reduced hours means the outgoings of the complex would be significantly lower, yet the direct debits have been rolling in. ?

Posts that can aid clarity appreciated.

The bit I have highlighted is the one flaw in your argument. Without seeing the Accounts for the year how do you know this to be true?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

No idea how it would pan out as it will be a while before any covid related claims start to hit the courts (ironically due to court congestion due to covid). My gut feeling though is that would not be the case as you would then need to define what you were entitled to for that membership and so not being able to use the course or facilities would imply that you received nothing. As I said, just hypothesising really but I suspect it will not be too long before a few people challenge memberships in court.

I think the problem might be, in most cases there is not a written contract of what that Membership comprises of.

 

[doublebogey7]

When you say "refund", did they send you money or deduct it from the next annual membership fee?

Deducted from my renewal.

 

[GB72]

I think the problem might be, in most cases there is not a written contract of what that Membership comprises of.

Very true. Again, hypothetically speaking, I would be looking on the club website and literature. Most of them have a section entitled 'benefits of membership' and I suspect many allude to the amount of golf you can play (those in areas that drain well may even say golf al year round) plus use of practice facilities, bar, restaurant, pro shop etc. That is what I would be quoting in court as my evidence of what I was due under my membership. I would then wait for the counter argument that they wanted to provide these things but could not due to government pandemic regulations and I would reply with my case that the contract had been frustrated as both parties wanted to perform their obligations but were prevented from doing so, hence frustration, hence contract set aside and so full refund for the year.

Please note that this is me just playing a legal scenario in my head, no doing this (I ended my membership last Xmas) and not advocating this as the way to proceed.

 

[clubchamp98]

Very true. Again, hypothetically speaking, I would be looking on the club website and literature. Most of them have a section entitled 'benefits of membership' and I suspect many allude to the amount of golf you can play (those in areas that drain well may even say golf al year round) plus use of practice facilities, bar, restaurant, pro shop etc. That is what I would be quoting in court as my evidence of what I was due under my membership. I would then wait for the counter argument that they wanted to provide these things but could not due to government pandemic regulations and I would reply with my case that the contract had been frustrated as both parties wanted to perform their obligations but were prevented from doing so, hence frustration, hence contract set aside and so full refund for the year.

Please note that this is me just playing a legal scenario in my head, no doing this (I ended my membership last Xmas) and not advocating this as the way to proceed.

I find the law dosnt necessarily always follow logic.
My thinking would be if this scenario was correct the club could sue the government for making them close .

 

[huds1475]

I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?

 

[Blue in Munich]

I find the law dosnt necessarily always follow logic.
My thinking would be if this scenario was correct the club could sue the government for making them close .

Given that all the evidence points to there being no risk, or no more risk than other permitted activities, you'd like to think that they had a case.

 

[DanFST]

I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?

You still have clubs. Shall we applaud Ryanair for not giving 2 million people any money back due to the pandemic?

After all they have staff to pay, planes to maintain.

 

[Kennysarmy]

I bought new irons last Feb, spread the payment over 12 months, interest free.

Should I expect money back off the retailer as I wasn't able to 'game' my clubs due to Covid?

You paid for something, you have something.

Relevance to thread is?

 

[Blue in Munich]

You paid for something, you have something.

Relevance to thread is?

You paid for membership of a golf club, you have membership of a golf club; you cannot use it because of Government decree, not because of a failing on the golf club's part.

Should you not be chasing the Government rather than the club?

 

[doublebogey7]

You paid for membership of a golf club, you have membership of a golf club; you cannot use it because of Government decree, not because of a failing on the golf club's part.

Should you not be chasing the Government rather than the club?

This is where the confusion lies, in my opinion, you can call it what you like, but annual subs paid to a propriety club is for a season ticket to play the course and use its facilities it is not membership in the normal sense. No different as far as I can see from.membership of a gym and nobody would suggest Gyms should keep.hold of your money. If challenged in court I'm confident the OP would win, whether he should do that though I am not so sure.

 

[Blue in Munich]

This is where the confusion lies, in my opinion, you can call it what you like, but annual subs paid to a propriety club is for a season ticket to play the course and use its facilities it is not membership in the normal sense. No different as far as I can see from.membership of a gym and nobody would suggest Gyms should keep.hold of your money. If challenged in court I'm confident the OP would win, whether he should do that though I am not so sure.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see it any differently; the facility you paid for, either membership or a season ticket, was unavailable due to the interference of an outside agency, not because of defect on the provider's part.

 

[doublebogey7]

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see it any differently; the facility you paid for, either membership or a season ticket, was unavailable due to the interference of an outside agency, not because of defect on the provider's part.

And the same applies to the gym, an airline, airbnb, wedding veues, but nobody is suggesting that these businesses aren't required to offer refunds. member owned courese/clubs though are different as I see it.

 

[Bdill93]

Just heard off the club.

Direct debit members will not pay fees for May, June, July and August in compensation for lost golf.

Annual fee members will have a third of their previous 2020 annual fee taken off the new 2021 rate when sent their renewal letters.

Fantastic decision for the owners/ management (propriety club) to make on behalf of the members. They have mentioned the club will be short of funds for a year but they could not see a reason to profit out of the members.

2 days to go!

 

[howbow88]

I can absolutely understand people suggesting that getting a refund may cripple the club, and the enforced closures are clearly not their fault. But in terms of legalities, I don't think any club would have a leg to stand if it did go all the way to court. The comparisons to airlines and gyms are valid, I think.

 

[doublebogey7]

I can absolutely understand people suggesting that getting a refund may cripple the club, and the enforced closures are clearly not their fault. But in terms of legalities, I don't think any club would have a leg to stand if it did go all the way to court. The comparisons to airlines and gyms are valid, I think.

Not in my view, when you join a members owned facility you become a share holder and have a say on how that facility is run and financed and therefore you will have a say in the level if any of compensation. This is in no comparable to any gym or airline I know.

 

[howbow88]

Not in my view, when you join a members owned facility you become a share holder and have a say on how that facility is run and financed and therefore you will have a say in the level if any of compensation. This is in no comparable to any gym or airline I know.

I guess it depends on the arrangement. Judging by the opening post, I don't think your examples applies in this particular case.