Closed holes & handicapping

[backwoodsman]

Sorry if this has been asked & answered elsewhere...

At present time, we have 4 holes closed due to conditions (waterlogging) so obviously only playing 14. In theory, is it still possible for cards to be submitted for handicap? (If not, why the difference from say, a player starting out to play 18 but not starting/completing 4 of the holes). Ta.

 

[wjemather]

Yes, since holes being out of play is a valid reason for not playing them, scores can be submitted for handicapping in such circumstances.

 

[Neilds]

Yes, since holes being out of play is a valid reason for not playing them, scores can be submitted for handicapping in such circumstances.

I thought this is wrong as the course won’t have been rated for the missing holes. You may be able to enter a front 9 (or back) if the 9 is complete

 

[wjemather]

I thought this is wrong as the course won’t have been rated for the missing holes. You may be able to enter a front 9 (or back) if the 9 is complete

A minimum of 10 holes need to be played for an 18-hole score to be acceptable for handicapping, as long as the reason for not playing the remaining holes is valid. Hole(s) "being declared out of play by the committee" is explicitly listed as a valid reason in the rules of handicapping. Scores are scaled up with net pars for the unplayed holes (with a net bogey for the first unplayed hole if fewer than 14 are played).

 

[rulefan]

Rule 3.2 says "add net par (or equivalent Stableford points)." using your full Course Handicap

 

[fenwayrich]

On a slightly different note, are people allowed to unilatarally declare a hole 'out of play' for the purpose of their General Play Round? We have two holes on temporary greens, but with larger sized (bucket) holes because the temps are in poor condition. This clearly makes any competition score not allowable for WHS, but if the round is just General Play, they could walk both holes and carry on if it is considered a 'valid reason'.

 

[jim8flog]

On a slightly different note, are people allowed to unilatarally declare a hole 'out of play' for the purpose of their General Play Round? We have two holes on temporary greens, but with larger sized (bucket) holes because the temps are in poor condition. This clearly makes any competition score not allowable for WHS, but if the round is just General Play, they could walk both holes and carry on if it is considered a 'valid reason'.

A round is acceptable for handicap purposes provided there are no more than tow temporary greens. Players are not allowed to miss out holes just because they think the scores on them might affect handicaps via the score achieved on the hole if they are open and being played.

Not sure if the bucket size holes makes a difference as clearly they do not meet the definition of a hole.

 

[rulefan]

On a slightly different note, are people allowed to unilatarally declare a hole 'out of play' for the purpose of their General Play Round? We have two holes on temporary greens, but with larger sized (bucket) holes because the temps are in poor condition. This clearly makes any competition score not allowable for WHS, but if the round is just General Play, they could walk both holes and carry on if it is considered a 'valid reason'.

IMO that would be a valid reason as the holes could not be played according to the Rules of Golf. But your committee should make it known.

 

[IanM]

Closed holes, bucket holes on temp greens? How desperate are you to put a card in?

 

[backwoodsman]

Ta all.

(Was interested as I've been playing very well - last five (shortened) rounds have been significantly better than handicap).

 

[fenwayrich]

Closed holes, bucket holes on temp greens? How desperate are you to put a card in?

Agreed, when the course gets like that it's only a faint resemblance of golf. And don't get me started on mats. However we have a few members who have taken on board the depressing mantra of England Golf that every round should be recorded.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Agreed, when the course gets like that it's only a faint resemblance of golf. And don't get me started on mats. However we have a few members who have taken on board the depressing mantra of England Golf that every round should be recorded.

Last sentence is very interesting, do England Golf actually want to drive people away from the game?

 

[wjemather]

Agreed, when the course gets like that it's only a faint resemblance of golf. And don't get me started on mats. However we have a few members who have taken on board the depressing mantra of England Golf that every round should be recorded.

This simply isn't true. I also don't know why you'd take offence at players wanting to submit scores for handicapping.

 

[IanM]

This simply isn't true. I also don't know why you'd take offence at players wanting to submit scores for handicapping.

I think it was more surprise that folk would be thinking it makes any sense to submit a score for handicap on a course that isn't properly open!

EG may not have said ALL rounds MUST be recorded, but there's copious words about actively putting in as many as you can in order to increase the accuracy of your HI. You can even walk off after 10 if you've done what you want to for you handicap! (up or down!)

That has driven the behaviour Rich referred to.

 

[wjemather]

EG may not have said ALL rounds MUST be recorded, but there's copious words about actively putting in as many as you can in order to increase the accuracy of your HI. You can even walk off after 10 if you've done what you want to for you handicap! (up or down!)

You explicitly cannot do this.

 

[IanM]

You explicitly cannot do this.

No but if I want to walk off for whatever reason, are you going to stop me? Eg.. "Argh! My back has gone!"

Directly from the FAQs

Do I have to record all scores? Players should submit all singles competition scores and have the ability to pre-register and submit scores from social games played in accordance with the rules of golf. Accuracy of a player’s Handicap Index will be improved the greater the number of scorecards submitted.

Where is the yes or no??? Nice and oblique as ever!

Q: What happens if I do not complete my round? A: If you are playing a nine-hole round – then all 9 holes must be played for the score to be included in your record. If playing an 18-hole round you must complete at least 10 holes for the score to be returned. Any holes not played will be allocated a net par or net par plus one, (which is it, bit vague eh??) before the score is processed.


Every process change, drives a behavioural change. Handing over written instructions doesn't constitute effective implementation. (and thank goodness for that, organisations thinking it does has kept a roof over my head! )

 

[Deleted member 30522]

IMO that would be a valid reason as the holes could not be played according to the Rules of Golf. But your committee should make it known.

Committee should also have taken the option of general play off the App so that folks don't post a GP score

 

[wjemather]

Committee should also have taken the option of general play off the App so that folks don't post a GP score

Nice idea, but if the temps are not an everyday thing, it's not exactly practical to disable 6 or more sets of tees (minimum of 18 holes, front 9 and back 9, for both men and women) on both WHS and ISV systems - and then re-enable them again - every day. Even more so if temps are only in play until frost clears.

 

[jim8flog]

Where is the yes or no??? Nice and oblique as ever!

Q: What happens if I do not complete my round? A: If you are playing a nine-hole round – then all 9 holes must be played for the score to be included in your record. If playing an 18-hole round you must complete at least 10 holes for the score to be returned. Any holes not played will be allocated a net par or net par plus one, (which is it, bit vague eh??) before the score is processed.


)

I would post the lot form the appropriate rule but easy to read for yourself

From the Rule Book
The additional scores are penalty scores

7.1b Applying a Penalty Score
In a situation where a player fails to submit a score from an authorized format of
play in a timely manner, the Handicap Committee should investigate the reason
and take appropriate action.
(i) If There is a Valid Reason For a Score Not Having Been Submitted. The
Handicap Committee of the player’s home club has the authority to
determine whether a player’s reason for not submitting a score is a valid
reason.

............

l Invalid reasons for not submitting a score can include:
o Preventing a low score from causing a Handicap Index to decrease.
o Preventing a high score from causing a Handicap Index to increase.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I would post the lot form the appropriate rule but easy to read for yourself

From the Rule Book
The additional scores are penalty scores

7.1b Applying a Penalty Score
In a situation where a player fails to submit a score from an authorized format of
play in a timely manner, the Handicap Committee should investigate the reason
and take appropriate action.
(i) If There is a Valid Reason For a Score Not Having Been Submitted. The
Handicap Committee of the player’s home club has the authority to
determine whether a player’s reason for not submitting a score is a valid
reason.

............

l Invalid reasons for not submitting a score can include:
o Preventing a low score from causing a Handicap Index to decrease.
o Preventing a high score from causing a Handicap Index to increase.

No they're not, a penalty score is specifically when a score is not submitted when a player has intimated they intend submitting a score that day, it can be a low or high score added to the record, but once you commit to a round you're in, you can't then back out.

The case of committing to 18 holes is exactly as you've quoted, once you play 10, you won't get a penalty score, but the rest of your round that isn't completed will be recorded as net par/par +1