D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I don't think so mate, it's not one of the protective characteristics in The Equality Act.
Christian bakers 'gay cake' appeal defeat
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
I don't think so mate, it's not one of the protective characteristics in The Equality Act.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
So I guess you wouldn't of accepted the order in the first place instead of insulting him.
You can be Muslim, you can be a butcher, you can offer services that are aligned solely with the values and beliefs of a Muslim
Halal Butcher
Qwerty
Tour Winner
Seems a reasonable request but if the bakers saw it as a stitch up and dug their heels in then I'd say 'Fair enough' if they didn't see it as a stitch up they shouldn't of even thought about it and just made the cake.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
If nothing else this thread shows we have a long way to go before gay people can expect to be treated equally. Meantime, thanks to activists over the years, we are at least equal in law and should damn well stand up for our rights where we can!
I am treating them equally if there is something i do not like i do not write stuff that says i support it
I would equally not make a cake that says Support animal testing as i do not believe in that either
If your cake has a message and you do not support the message you should be free to decline, that is the bigger point, what gays do or do not do is their business, but asking people to put in writing messages they oppose should not be something anyone is forced to do.
Hence equality
IanG
Tour Rookie
:thup:
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Actually I think the thread has been reasonable and hasn't specifically picked out the gay community. I certainly hope what I have posted in no way suggests that. My thoughts are more on an individuals freedom to not write something they don't believe in or that might offend others.
If it just said Support Marriage and the bakers were divorced and thought Marriage to be an insane and outdated concept would they be allowed to decline?
Forcing a written statement out of people, which is what this is, is wrong, wrong and wrong again
The customers should have said, respect your opinion (We are allowed different opinions) and gone somewhere else
Forcing a written statement out of people, which is what this is, is wrong, wrong and wrong again
The customers should have said, respect your opinion (We are allowed different opinions) and gone somewhere else
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Halal meat is part of his product range not a service. That butcher possibly doesn't stock other types of meat
The baker wasn't being asked to sell a product they didn't offer (a cake with a message)
The service is ensuring the meat is produced to comply with their beliefs and it is no different.
A faith is dictating what products are produced and how in the case of the butcher
A faith is dictating what products are produced and how in the case of the baker
In the first example, i cannot demand non halal as they will not produce this due to faith
In the second example, their faith and beliefs are ignored
It is inconsistent and forcing statements on people, WRITTEN STATEMENTS is something hostages have to do!.. its just wrong
IanG
Tour Rookie
Equality legislation as far as I understand it singles out a number of 'protected characteristics' upon which businesses offering services cannot discriminate. They are in that sense 'protected' above and beyond individuals beliefs and opinions.
I think my example in a previous post about a printer not being allowed to legally refuse to print a poster with 'support black workers' on it makes the case. Even if the printer believes black workers should not be supported he is not allowed to discriminate against a protected characteristic like that.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
But the requested message didn't say 'xyz christian bakers support gay marriage'
They would have very good grounds to refuse to put that on a cake
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
They accepted the order, words and everything.
2 days later phoned him up, maybe profit came before belief initially,
I get what you are saying but
He is being asked to SUPPORT this group, despite not supporting it
He cannot discriminate against people, i.e. he did not refuse to make cakes for gays as they were gay, he refused to produce a statement that supported something he did not agree with.
The legislation has to have a limit, he has a gay customer buy a cake every day, one day he is asked to put a slogan on a cake he disagrees with by that gay customer, he is not discriminating against gays, he is simply not SUPPORTING their cause.
If the law says different, i would ignore the law as and when i felt appropriate as being forced to write anything that you do not believe should never happen
I understand if it said XYZ bakers support, there is no case as that is totally different
But there is an obvious implication that they DO when you open a cake known to be from a company that says SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE, when the owners of that business clearly do not.
A reasonable reaction would be fair enough and get it elsewhere, my view wont change.
BTW i would make the cake, but i believe the bakers should have the right not to produce a cake with a slogan they oppose regardless of what it is
He is being asked to SUPPORT this group, despite not supporting it
He cannot discriminate against people, i.e. he did not refuse to make cakes for gays as they were gay, he refused to produce a statement that supported something he did not agree with.
The legislation has to have a limit, he has a gay customer buy a cake every day, one day he is asked to put a slogan on a cake he disagrees with by that gay customer, he is not discriminating against gays, he is simply not SUPPORTING their cause.
If the law says different, i would ignore the law as and when i felt appropriate as being forced to write anything that you do not believe should never happen
I understand if it said XYZ bakers support, there is no case as that is totally different
But there is an obvious implication that they DO when you open a cake known to be from a company that says SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE, when the owners of that business clearly do not.
A reasonable reaction would be fair enough and get it elsewhere, my view wont change.
BTW i would make the cake, but i believe the bakers should have the right not to produce a cake with a slogan they oppose regardless of what it is
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Was not aware they had accepted the order with words etc
That being the case they should have made the cake, 100% agree, unless it was not a principal in the business who accepted the order
Not living in the UK so just joined the end of the thread
That being the case they should have made the cake, 100% agree, unless it was not a principal in the business who accepted the order
Not living in the UK so just joined the end of the thread
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
It was one of the couple who took the initial order.
So zero grounds to refuse then
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
We let our rooms to such as Toddlers Groups; the WI; AA; Local Historical Society; even UKIP - but I might feel I have to turn down a request from Stonewall. And why would I have to consider doing that?
The problem is that for a very few older members of our congregation, homosexuality is a difficult issue for them from their faith perspective and in the context of the church - as much as I wish it wasn't - it just is - and I have a duty to the whole congregation. I cannot do things unilaterally as I do not have that authority.
Would I be breaking the law? I guess I would be.
Actually what would happen is that our administrator, being sensitive to potential issues around taking any booking, would contact the elders and ask for their advise - and we would in almost all cases say OK. And we'd take the flak if any came out of a booking. So we'd say OK to Stonewall -= as we are like that
The problem is that for a very few older members of our congregation, homosexuality is a difficult issue for them from their faith perspective and in the context of the church - as much as I wish it wasn't - it just is - and I have a duty to the whole congregation. I cannot do things unilaterally as I do not have that authority.
Would I be breaking the law? I guess I would be.
Actually what would happen is that our administrator, being sensitive to potential issues around taking any booking, would contact the elders and ask for their advise - and we would in almost all cases say OK. And we'd take the flak if any came out of a booking. So we'd say OK to Stonewall -= as we are like that
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sawtooth
Tour Winner
Would it have been legal if they advertised in the window beforehand that they will refuse to print messages that are in anyway, political, obscene, blasphemous, pornographic and offensive to others?
That way you know the score before you go in and it's fair and equal to all. That's what most people want equal treatment but not special treatment.
That way you know the score before you go in and it's fair and equal to all. That's what most people want equal treatment but not special treatment.
