Screwback
Tour Rookie
I would think because the are the best...
*nods head*
I would think because the are the best...
*nods head*
richart
Major Champion
Played Woodbridge years ago, and from memory seemed a good course.
I think the Scots are just spoilt rotten. End of. Loads of those not even in the top 200 would be worth a visit on their own. Not sure you could always say that about a lot of courses in England in particular
Correct me if I am wrong but has England not got 48 in the top 100 against 27 for Scotland?
Spoilt Rotten??
Spoilt Rotten??
Correct me if I am wrong but has England not got 48 in the top 100 against 27 for Scotland?
Spoilt Rotten??
What I'm saying is the fact that there are many courses in Scotland that wouldn't make a top 200 survey and yet would be worth the trip alone. Look at some of the ones you're members of, all with stunning scenery and differing styles (links, parkland, heathland) that would demand a small fortune to play if they could be transported to stockbroker Surrey, or on the outskirts of Birminham, Liverpool etc
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I think the key to what Homer is saying is, alot of the top 100 that are in Scotland, are affordable (ish, with special fees for residents), and near by without driving for hours. Try playing Wentworth, or Sunningdale and you will begin to see how flippin expensive golf can be in the south. To play links, aparently the best type of track,Princes, 2 hours min, is the closest to me.
To a degree Murph but also there are loads of cheap accessible courses that are almost taken for granted up there which are fantastic in their own right but would never make a top listing. Some of the nearest courses (taking muni's out of this particular equation) are The Berkshire, Wentworth, Bearwood Lakes, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest and Mill Ride. Now most of those (perhaps with the exception of Mill Ride) have appeared in the top 100 at some time. Now look at the ones nearby in the "taken for granted" category. Sand Martins, East Berkshire, Windlesham etc. All decent enough to be a member of and I love all of them but would you really make an effort to go and play them. They are more expensive (ok granted my locality is the major factor) but they don't possess the wow factor of some of the day to day courses in Scotland (and for that matter in parts of Ireland and Wales). There are some in England that are like that but not in such numbers
Screwback
Tour Rookie
How about Silloth, Not played it but the majority of people that have that i have spoke to, have said our place is equally as good...
Screwback,I rate ours better in terms of layout and test but I fear we get marked down for conditioning which IMO could and should be tidier.
An example being the same divots that you and I took on the 2nd tee last weekend will still be here come April 1st,lift the pegs and that's the job done til placing them back down again seems to be the remit year on year.Wee things can make such a huge differance.
An example being the same divots that you and I took on the 2nd tee last weekend will still be here come April 1st,lift the pegs and that's the job done til placing them back down again seems to be the remit year on year.Wee things can make such a huge differance.
Macster
Journeyman Pro
I would think because the are the best...
*nods head*
Its all personal preference, Id rather play Wentworth, Sunningdale, Woodhall, Loch Lomand, and a host of other inland courses over links any day.
And yes, Ive played lots of links golf..........
John_Findlay
Tour Winner
My girlfriend and I have just splurted our dinner oot! Keep 'em coming Dodger.
That explains why Craigentinny Links & Country Club didn't make the list then.
The smell from the sewage works along the road must have meant it was marked down by the assessors
I refer to it as Royal Craigentinny, Dave. It should be marked UP to at least 3000 for accessability as being my closest course. Damn fine for a muni.
Tiger
Money List Winner
I've heard good things about Woodbridge and will give it a bash when I'm consistently breaking 100. Ipswich is good track as well, though very tight. Brett Vale is attractive and Thetford is supposed to be pretty good as well but they pale into insignificance when you look at what the scots have got clustered up there. And yet they complain about the ranking order. Give over
Dodger
couple of quick thoughts on a couple of your points
* Panmure
I cant personally comment on the welcome of the pro but we love the clubhouse. One of the most beautiful unique exteriors in the Uk and Ireland and while the inside isnt the latest in comfort and mod cons I think it oozes charm and history which is right for the sort of club it is. Very much like a Brancaster or Westward Ho! when you might get a splinter in your backside from but wooden benches in the locker room but you know its where JH Taylor or Ben Hogan once sat.
We also rated the design highly. A great variety of holes that encapulsates two differnt styles. Becuase it's such old linksland you do have sections of the course where pines have established themselevs which bring a nice change from the pure links holes - bit like Formby in England for those who have played it. Our pannelists also praised the quality of the playing surfaces and I have to say when I visted a couple of years ago the greens were some of the best I'd putted on that year.
* Number of English vs Scottish courses in the list
The point of the graphic in the mag where we showed number of courses each country had was to illustate that although England had the most, they are actually under represnted relative to the total number of clubs in the country. IE Scotland as a country boasts higher concentration of Top 100 courses then England. England has 48 top 100 courses out of circa 1900 affiliated clubs whilke Scotland has 27 from around 570.
Just glancing down the next 100 (and then thinking of courses that would be in the 200-330 bracket) Scotland would again have stronger representation than England in those brackets.
In summary you gentleman north of the border are lucky chaps!
Course conditioning
You are spot on with the importance of course condition. This is major factor that holds back a lot of clubs that fall into the strong contender category but dont ultimately make it. At a club like Goswick or somewhere like Crowborough Beacon down south you are pretty much stuck with the course design, clubhouse and views etc (ie they are what they are - good but not outstanding - and would in the case fo the course clubhoyse be prohibitively expensive to alter significantly) but where any contender course can really shine state thier case is by presenting the course in a consistently immaculate condition with particualr attention paid to the details.
So... manage the course in an environmentally sesnitive way, make the defintion of fairway to first cut sharp, make the approaxhes well defined, keep the bunkers in tip top condition and stone free, ensure the teeing areas are pristine, dont let people walk up the side of tee boxes, have good quality sinage, try to manage wear and tear casued by traffic etc
A good case of this is Beau Desert that so nearly crept into the Top 100 because of the consistently excellent course condition and heatland management. In the end it missed out for other reasons but it gave itslef the very best chance of making the cut.
Aas always, plenty to discuss!
couple of quick thoughts on a couple of your points
* Panmure
I cant personally comment on the welcome of the pro but we love the clubhouse. One of the most beautiful unique exteriors in the Uk and Ireland and while the inside isnt the latest in comfort and mod cons I think it oozes charm and history which is right for the sort of club it is. Very much like a Brancaster or Westward Ho! when you might get a splinter in your backside from but wooden benches in the locker room but you know its where JH Taylor or Ben Hogan once sat.
We also rated the design highly. A great variety of holes that encapulsates two differnt styles. Becuase it's such old linksland you do have sections of the course where pines have established themselevs which bring a nice change from the pure links holes - bit like Formby in England for those who have played it. Our pannelists also praised the quality of the playing surfaces and I have to say when I visted a couple of years ago the greens were some of the best I'd putted on that year.
* Number of English vs Scottish courses in the list
The point of the graphic in the mag where we showed number of courses each country had was to illustate that although England had the most, they are actually under represnted relative to the total number of clubs in the country. IE Scotland as a country boasts higher concentration of Top 100 courses then England. England has 48 top 100 courses out of circa 1900 affiliated clubs whilke Scotland has 27 from around 570.
Just glancing down the next 100 (and then thinking of courses that would be in the 200-330 bracket) Scotland would again have stronger representation than England in those brackets.
In summary you gentleman north of the border are lucky chaps!
Course conditioning
You are spot on with the importance of course condition. This is major factor that holds back a lot of clubs that fall into the strong contender category but dont ultimately make it. At a club like Goswick or somewhere like Crowborough Beacon down south you are pretty much stuck with the course design, clubhouse and views etc (ie they are what they are - good but not outstanding - and would in the case fo the course clubhoyse be prohibitively expensive to alter significantly) but where any contender course can really shine state thier case is by presenting the course in a consistently immaculate condition with particualr attention paid to the details.
So... manage the course in an environmentally sesnitive way, make the defintion of fairway to first cut sharp, make the approaxhes well defined, keep the bunkers in tip top condition and stone free, ensure the teeing areas are pristine, dont let people walk up the side of tee boxes, have good quality sinage, try to manage wear and tear casued by traffic etc
A good case of this is Beau Desert that so nearly crept into the Top 100 because of the consistently excellent course condition and heatland management. In the end it missed out for other reasons but it gave itslef the very best chance of making the cut.
Aas always, plenty to discuss!
John_Findlay
Tour Winner
It would be interesting to know your personal top 5 or top 10, Mike, to see how it compares to the published list.
It's always a toughy to decide from scratch but since it's not long since you went through the process they should be fresh in the mind, I'm guessing.
It's always a toughy to decide from scratch but since it's not long since you went through the process they should be fresh in the mind, I'm guessing.
T
thecraw
Guest
Mike,
You will regret getting involved in this discussion! Can I ask who went to Kilmarnock Barassie and rated that into your "2nd string top 100??? Barassie is a boring slog, not quite links but certainly not Heathland either. The old Barassie, or sorry the original Barassie which I believe they resort to in the winter is a miles better course that the new 9 holes that they constructed which in my opinion are just a boring, long, flat slog!
I am also genuinely surprised to see that Southerness has not made the top 100.
I think you should commission Dodger and I to do Scotlands top 50 courses. That would be fun!
You will regret getting involved in this discussion! Can I ask who went to Kilmarnock Barassie and rated that into your "2nd string top 100??? Barassie is a boring slog, not quite links but certainly not Heathland either. The old Barassie, or sorry the original Barassie which I believe they resort to in the winter is a miles better course that the new 9 holes that they constructed which in my opinion are just a boring, long, flat slog!
I am also genuinely surprised to see that Southerness has not made the top 100.
I think you should commission Dodger and I to do Scotlands top 50 courses. That would be fun!
With regard to Panmure I accept your findings but really cannot agree with the course part but hey it is all about opinions.I would have Sherwood Forest way above many on the list and namely Druids Glen,Gullane 1, Panmure and Ladybank...well above.
With regards to my own track,for me it is easily understandable why it would just miss out due to all that you and I have previously mentioned...all wee little things but wee little things that I and the guys I go away with regular always remark on when visiting other tracks.Many don't match up course design wise to my own course but more than match up in other little ways.
I do hope that people from the club take these points on board and in 2 years time the course IS in where I believe it truly belongs.
With regards to my own track,for me it is easily understandable why it would just miss out due to all that you and I have previously mentioned...all wee little things but wee little things that I and the guys I go away with regular always remark on when visiting other tracks.Many don't match up course design wise to my own course but more than match up in other little ways.
I do hope that people from the club take these points on board and in 2 years time the course IS in where I believe it truly belongs.
Screwback
Tour Rookie
So its not exactly the top 100 courses!! Its the top 100 best club, best driveway, bbest scenery etc.
For me the top 100 course should be just that the courses if the course is amazing everything else should be secondry.
For me the top 100 course should be just that the courses if the course is amazing everything else should be secondry.
stevek1969
Money List Winner
Played Panmure a few weeks ago and the course was in superb condition,i've played it a few times in the past 3-4 years and is always in condition ,basically because its rarely played and thats the way they like it.
The young pro we met the last time was good lad who was very welcome,even gave us free range balls so thats a bonus.
The clubhouse is old school and again they like it like that the membership is made up of doctors,lawyers ,buisnessmen so they keep the fees high to keep the riff raff out as they say, you need 10 letters of introduction just to maybe get a look at joining.
Going back to the course its not overly difficult alot of holes are about placement rather smashing the ball as far as you can.
Going back to my own course when the final Qualifying for The Open was at St Andrews it was the most difficult out of Ladybank ,St Andrews Bay and Kingsbarns so that says alot for it,maybe i'm just biased.
Maybe an idea Mike but how about getting some of the guys from here to go and review some of the courses instead of the same guy then you might get a different slant on it as has on most of the posts already.
The young pro we met the last time was good lad who was very welcome,even gave us free range balls so thats a bonus.
The clubhouse is old school and again they like it like that the membership is made up of doctors,lawyers ,buisnessmen so they keep the fees high to keep the riff raff out as they say, you need 10 letters of introduction just to maybe get a look at joining.
Going back to the course its not overly difficult alot of holes are about placement rather smashing the ball as far as you can.
Going back to my own course when the final Qualifying for The Open was at St Andrews it was the most difficult out of Ladybank ,St Andrews Bay and Kingsbarns so that says alot for it,maybe i'm just biased.
Maybe an idea Mike but how about getting some of the guys from here to go and review some of the courses instead of the same guy then you might get a different slant on it as has on most of the posts already.
The guys who do the listing are all apparantly 'golfers' Steve but on inspecting the panel I note that 1 of the 3 Senior Panel members is a Rob Smith aged 53 Handicap 14......
Surely not THE Rob Smith??!!
If so all credence of the list has to be questioned....a knob as a Senior Panelist?!?!
Surely not THE Rob Smith??!!
If so all credence of the list has to be questioned....a knob as a Senior Panelist?!?!
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
The guys who do the listing are all apparantly 'golfers' Steve but on inspecting the panel I note that 1 of the 3 Senior Panel members is a Rob Smith aged 53 Handicap 14......
Surely not THE Rob Smith??!!
If so all credence of the list has to be questioned....a knob as a Senior Panelist?!?!
Not me, so bollocks
