Correct on both IMVHO.
Correct on both IMVHO.
John_Findlay
Tour Winner
These things are very subjective, Steve, so I'm going to have to disagree with you about Castle Stuart. One man's feast is another man's famine, as they say. It should be higher than 25th. Much higher.
From the list in this month's GM I've played 10 of the top 13 courses (not played Muirfield, Birkdale or St George's) and I have to say that apart from maybe County Down & Carnoustie I'd rather play Castle Stuart again before the rest. That's my test of a great course.
In my opinion it's streets ahead of Kingsbarns (11) and a probably a fag paper's width away from Dornoch (12). Figure that one out.
Others I could rant about. Waterville ahead of Ballybunion? No chance. Not even close. Tralee at 46? Should be much higher. Way better than Nairn, North Berwick or Macrihanish.
Spey Valley doesn't even get a mention in the top 100 and yet Ladybank, Cruden Bay and the Belfry are in there. Eh? Mind boggling in my view.
Anyway. It's like trying to pick your favourite child. An impossible task.
From the list in this month's GM I've played 10 of the top 13 courses (not played Muirfield, Birkdale or St George's) and I have to say that apart from maybe County Down & Carnoustie I'd rather play Castle Stuart again before the rest. That's my test of a great course.
In my opinion it's streets ahead of Kingsbarns (11) and a probably a fag paper's width away from Dornoch (12). Figure that one out.
Others I could rant about. Waterville ahead of Ballybunion? No chance. Not even close. Tralee at 46? Should be much higher. Way better than Nairn, North Berwick or Macrihanish.
Spey Valley doesn't even get a mention in the top 100 and yet Ladybank, Cruden Bay and the Belfry are in there. Eh? Mind boggling in my view.
Anyway. It's like trying to pick your favourite child. An impossible task.
T
thecraw
Guest
Its not even in the same league as Turnberry Jon, Turnberry is Premier League, Castle Stuart is Championship standard. Yes its a superb track but to suggest its a better track than Turnberry or even Western Gailes for that matter is just silly talk.
Did I enjoy Castle Stuart? Loved it to bits! Did I enjoy Turnberry, sure did. Whats the better course, Turnberry by a long stretch.
John_Findlay
Tour Winner
Never said it was better. Just more enjoyable. Turnberry is the better course although it has a few weak holes especially when you swing inland.
Blimey. A whinging Jock is a happy Jock. 
ALL of those courses are better than anything I'm likely to find in about two days drive from here.
Ok, a slight exageration, but given the amount of quality courses available at rediculously cheap prices that you lot can play every day, and all you need are brass balls and thick longjohns for 10 months of the year.
Ask Smiffy how high Wellshurst would get into the top 10,000 ffs and see what I have to put up with.
ALL of those courses are better than anything I'm likely to find in about two days drive from here.
Ok, a slight exageration, but given the amount of quality courses available at rediculously cheap prices that you lot can play every day, and all you need are brass balls and thick longjohns for 10 months of the year.
Ask Smiffy how high Wellshurst would get into the top 10,000 ffs and see what I have to put up with.
Afternoon all
The first thing to say is its great to read all the debate on our new Top 100. The purpose of the list is to provoke passionate exchange of views so by just reading this thread it seems like its time for me and Jezz put out feet up as it's job done!
With regard to a couple of specific comments/queries...
* The list being definitive
The one thing our list is not, is definitive. I was at great pains to emphasise in the how we compile the rankings feature (http://bit.ly/aAFDKd) that any list of the best courses is subjective. i.e. it’s based on opinion and this case, our opinion. We don’t profess to be 100% right but we assess on a set criteria and from that set the positions. If you haven't read the piece you should. It puts it all in context.
* Who compiles the list?
In short its golfers who a) are GM readers b) over time have played a lot of different courses and c) who can commit to playing a lot of courses on our contender course during an 18 month assessing window.
This ensures panellists are genuine golfers who get out and play a lot (and do I mean A LOT) of golf on different courses. Our real star assessors will have played around 80 contender courses since the last rankings (Nov 2008) and in their golfing careers have played well over 300 courses with Derek Dobbs of our senior advisory panel notching up over 3000 tracks!
Because the panellists are out there playing the volume of different tracks they are during the assessing period we get a very up to date view of each course/club. In essence that means prior reputation counts for nothing if the course is not being well managed and the off course facilities for visitors are in need of updating.
That experience doesn't of course make us 'right' (just as if you have only played say 10 of the Top 100 your view isn’t invalid) but when it comes to deciding the final 1-100 order but it does allow us to have an informed opinion and be able to better benchmark courses with much more accuracy when looked at with specific reference to our criteria.
One of the most important sections of our assessment form is this benchmarking and after a visit we ask panellists to suggest which bracket they think a course should be on 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80, 81-100 or outside the Top 100. We also ask them to rate it relative to other courses they have played so we get back views saying better than A, B and C, about the same as D and E and not as good as F, G and H. It’s only possible to make that call if you have actually played courses A to G.
As an aside If anyone on the forum has a handicap below 18, has played over 50 of the current list and more than 200 different courses in their career and would like to be involved then drop me a mail we are looking to recruit a handful of new panellists for the 2011-12 ranking period.
* Price
This is always brought up but the fact is our list is about the best courses not the best courses under a certain price point. With the input of the forum we did a big feature last year on the great value courses. Read that by clicking here (http://bit.ly/na95p) if you want to find a good track at a keen price.
What I would say about price is that courses which offer particularly good value day’s golf (especially when relative to other Top 100 courses in the same region) are marked up and those which we feel are excessively priced are marked down. That basic rule aside playing a Top 100 course should be a ‘treat’. Unless you’re very wealthy (or whack everything on the plastic and worry about it later) you have to save up for ‘treats’ be it a nice meal out with your other half, a family holiday, a boozy weekend away with the lads or a round at a top golf course. That’s life I’m afraid.
* Access
Of our list the only course where you are unable to play as an unaccompanied guest is Loch Lomond. We mark it down for that.
* Specific courses
Castle Stuart - every assessor who visited - and with the fact 6 of us played in the forum day - we had 11 visits this year ranked the course in the top 40 with some very experienced guys recommending it to go straight into the Top 10. We felt 25 was about right for a
Gleneagles – No doubting it’s a great course (the fact it’s in the Top 30 is proof of that) but on the downside we feel it gets a lot of play meaning long rounds and a lot of wear and tear on the course. There's also the fact that all the work and investment is being undertaken on the Dormy Clubhouse rather than the course. Within the Top 30 that amounts to standing still and when so many other courses are investing heavily then the result is a drop in the rankings. It goes back to the fact our rankings really try to drill down to provide an up to date picture.
Machrihanish – All the reports sing its praises hence why its number 37 but it’s hard to get to for the vast majority of the UK population and that counts against it. Our rankings aren’t just about the course but also the visitor experience and having to make a significant trek to get to a course impacts on that experience. Higher up the rankings Woodhall Spa is marked down for the same reason
Porstewart (Strand), Berwick Upon Tweed, Spey Valley - We looked at all of these courses (and many more besides) very closely and have had assessors visit them all but in the end they missed out. They are all courses that would compete for a place in the 85-100 bracket and within that we look for courses that either offer a unique golfing experience (Royal Worlington and Nefyn would fit into that category) or do something really well (in addition to performing strongly in all criterion) be it the difficulty of the test (Woburn Duchess) course conditioning/work (Sherwood Forest) or views (Castle Course).
I do hope the above is of interest but at the end of the day you have to remember that no list can be definitive and that will create debate and disagreement so seconds out…round 2.
The first thing to say is its great to read all the debate on our new Top 100. The purpose of the list is to provoke passionate exchange of views so by just reading this thread it seems like its time for me and Jezz put out feet up as it's job done!
With regard to a couple of specific comments/queries...
* The list being definitive
The one thing our list is not, is definitive. I was at great pains to emphasise in the how we compile the rankings feature (http://bit.ly/aAFDKd) that any list of the best courses is subjective. i.e. it’s based on opinion and this case, our opinion. We don’t profess to be 100% right but we assess on a set criteria and from that set the positions. If you haven't read the piece you should. It puts it all in context.
* Who compiles the list?
In short its golfers who a) are GM readers b) over time have played a lot of different courses and c) who can commit to playing a lot of courses on our contender course during an 18 month assessing window.
This ensures panellists are genuine golfers who get out and play a lot (and do I mean A LOT) of golf on different courses. Our real star assessors will have played around 80 contender courses since the last rankings (Nov 2008) and in their golfing careers have played well over 300 courses with Derek Dobbs of our senior advisory panel notching up over 3000 tracks!
Because the panellists are out there playing the volume of different tracks they are during the assessing period we get a very up to date view of each course/club. In essence that means prior reputation counts for nothing if the course is not being well managed and the off course facilities for visitors are in need of updating.
That experience doesn't of course make us 'right' (just as if you have only played say 10 of the Top 100 your view isn’t invalid) but when it comes to deciding the final 1-100 order but it does allow us to have an informed opinion and be able to better benchmark courses with much more accuracy when looked at with specific reference to our criteria.
One of the most important sections of our assessment form is this benchmarking and after a visit we ask panellists to suggest which bracket they think a course should be on 1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80, 81-100 or outside the Top 100. We also ask them to rate it relative to other courses they have played so we get back views saying better than A, B and C, about the same as D and E and not as good as F, G and H. It’s only possible to make that call if you have actually played courses A to G.
As an aside If anyone on the forum has a handicap below 18, has played over 50 of the current list and more than 200 different courses in their career and would like to be involved then drop me a mail we are looking to recruit a handful of new panellists for the 2011-12 ranking period.
* Price
This is always brought up but the fact is our list is about the best courses not the best courses under a certain price point. With the input of the forum we did a big feature last year on the great value courses. Read that by clicking here (http://bit.ly/na95p) if you want to find a good track at a keen price.
What I would say about price is that courses which offer particularly good value day’s golf (especially when relative to other Top 100 courses in the same region) are marked up and those which we feel are excessively priced are marked down. That basic rule aside playing a Top 100 course should be a ‘treat’. Unless you’re very wealthy (or whack everything on the plastic and worry about it later) you have to save up for ‘treats’ be it a nice meal out with your other half, a family holiday, a boozy weekend away with the lads or a round at a top golf course. That’s life I’m afraid.
* Access
Of our list the only course where you are unable to play as an unaccompanied guest is Loch Lomond. We mark it down for that.
* Specific courses
Castle Stuart - every assessor who visited - and with the fact 6 of us played in the forum day - we had 11 visits this year ranked the course in the top 40 with some very experienced guys recommending it to go straight into the Top 10. We felt 25 was about right for a
Gleneagles – No doubting it’s a great course (the fact it’s in the Top 30 is proof of that) but on the downside we feel it gets a lot of play meaning long rounds and a lot of wear and tear on the course. There's also the fact that all the work and investment is being undertaken on the Dormy Clubhouse rather than the course. Within the Top 30 that amounts to standing still and when so many other courses are investing heavily then the result is a drop in the rankings. It goes back to the fact our rankings really try to drill down to provide an up to date picture.
Machrihanish – All the reports sing its praises hence why its number 37 but it’s hard to get to for the vast majority of the UK population and that counts against it. Our rankings aren’t just about the course but also the visitor experience and having to make a significant trek to get to a course impacts on that experience. Higher up the rankings Woodhall Spa is marked down for the same reason
Porstewart (Strand), Berwick Upon Tweed, Spey Valley - We looked at all of these courses (and many more besides) very closely and have had assessors visit them all but in the end they missed out. They are all courses that would compete for a place in the 85-100 bracket and within that we look for courses that either offer a unique golfing experience (Royal Worlington and Nefyn would fit into that category) or do something really well (in addition to performing strongly in all criterion) be it the difficulty of the test (Woburn Duchess) course conditioning/work (Sherwood Forest) or views (Castle Course).
I do hope the above is of interest but at the end of the day you have to remember that no list can be definitive and that will create debate and disagreement so seconds out…round 2.
John_Findlay
Tour Winner
Jings. A pretty thorough response there, Mike.
Only have one thing to say. 3000 courses?!?! So that's, what, 75 new courses every year for 40 years? Has he ever played one twice?
Only have one thing to say. 3000 courses?!?! So that's, what, 75 new courses every year for 40 years? Has he ever played one twice?
Its fair to say Derek playes a lot of golf. He has played golf all his life (he is 66 now) and has spent most of the last decade playing non-stop!
richart
Major Champion
Can't believe Liphook's in and Blackmoor's not 
Your invitation to the forum meet is hereby cancelled Mike.
Your invitation to the forum meet is hereby cancelled Mike. 
DCB
Well-known member
That explains why Craigentinny Links & Country Club didn't make the list then.
The smell from the sewage works along the road must have meant it was marked down by the assessors
Definately a subjective assessment and rating as stated in magazine. I've no problems with that at all. A list is always good for a discussion like this
The smell from the sewage works along the road must have meant it was marked down by the assessors
Definately a subjective assessment and rating as stated in magazine. I've no problems with that at all. A list is always good for a discussion like this
StuartD
Tour Rookie
That explains why Craigentinny Links & Country Club didn't make the list then.
The smell from the sewage works along the road must have meant it was marked down by the assessors
Sewage Works???????? Surely the smell comes from Easter Road nearby Dave
HRC99
Journeyman Pro
How on earth can you mark down Woodhall Spa as hard to get to?
It's only in Lincolnshire and what, about 25 miles from the A1? That hardly puts it in the same league as Macrihanish for difficulty of access.
I don't know. These southerners. Anything north of Watford.....
That said, Mike, I appreciate your taking the time to explain the thought processes behind the rankings. It is always very subjective, hence, the discussion and the depth of feeling on here.
It's only in Lincolnshire and what, about 25 miles from the A1? That hardly puts it in the same league as Macrihanish for difficulty of access.
I don't know. These southerners. Anything north of Watford.....
That said, Mike, I appreciate your taking the time to explain the thought processes behind the rankings. It is always very subjective, hence, the discussion and the depth of feeling on here.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
How on earth can you mark down Woodhall Spa as hard to get to?
It's only in Lincolnshire and what, about 25 miles from the A1? That hardly puts it in the same league as Macrihanish for difficulty of access.
I don't know. These southerners. Anything north of Watford.....
That said, Mike, I appreciate your taking the time to explain the thought processes behind the rankings. It is always very subjective, hence, the discussion and the depth of feeling on here.
But that 25 miles is an hour and a half, depending on how many tractors you get stuck behind.
HRC99
Journeyman Pro
How on earth can you mark down Woodhall Spa as hard to get to?
It's only in Lincolnshire and what, about 25 miles from the A1? That hardly puts it in the same league as Macrihanish for difficulty of access.
I don't know. These southerners. Anything north of Watford.....
That said, Mike, I appreciate your taking the time to explain the thought processes behind the rankings. It is always very subjective, hence, the discussion and the depth of feeling on here.
But that 25 miles is an hour and a half, depending on how many tractors you get stuck behind.
Only if you're walking.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Ask Smiffy how high Wellshurst would get into the top 10,000 ffs and see what I have to put up with.
This thread is about golf courses.
That pile of shite is about as far removed from a golf course as Noel Edmonds is from quality entertainment.
The first and second fairways are closed every third Sunday in the month for banger racing ffs!!
I'll put it on record....I would rather play Lydd again than set foot on Wellshurst.
With regard to Panmure,what does it 'do really well' to merit?
Nice clubhouse,friendly Pro,or did I miss something?
Nice clubhouse,friendly Pro,or did I miss something?
Tiger
Money List Winner
Oh my word. Can all of you scots stop whinging? This course is better than that course and isn't as good as this course and you've forgotten about this, this and this course and they're all better than the top 100. For crying out loud!!!!
Open your mag to page 114. Find Ipswich, for the geographically challenged it's in the anus of Britain at the bottom of the big East Anglian bum.
How many red dots do you see? One number 78, Aldeburgh and that's a 50 minute drive. Next closest, number 99 Royal Worlington & Cambridge. Everything else is blinking miles away so do me a favour and stop moaning that you have so many great courses on your doorstep but GM have got them in the wrong order.
Rant over.
Open your mag to page 114. Find Ipswich, for the geographically challenged it's in the anus of Britain at the bottom of the big East Anglian bum.
How many red dots do you see? One number 78, Aldeburgh and that's a 50 minute drive. Next closest, number 99 Royal Worlington & Cambridge. Everything else is blinking miles away so do me a favour and stop moaning that you have so many great courses on your doorstep but GM have got them in the wrong order.
Rant over.
Macster
Journeyman Pro
Rant here too........
Top 10 all Links Courses.........do me a favour. *shakes head*
Top 10 all Links Courses.........do me a favour. *shakes head*
Oh my word. Can all of you scots stop whinging? This course is better than that course and isn't as good as this course and you've forgotten about this, this and this course and they're all better than the top 100. For crying out loud!!!!
Open your mag to page 114. Find Ipswich, for the geographically challenged it's in the anus of Britain at the bottom of the big East Anglian bum.
How many red dots do you see? One number 78, Aldeburgh and that's a 50 minute drive. Next closest, number 99 Royal Worlington & Cambridge. Everything else is blinking miles away so do me a favour and stop moaning that you have so many great courses on your doorstep but GM have got them in the wrong order.
Rant over.
Move hoose....problem solved.
Tiger
Money List Winner
Oh my word. Can all of you scots stop whinging? This course is better than that course and isn't as good as this course and you've forgotten about this, this and this course and they're all better than the top 100. For crying out loud!!!!
Open your mag to page 114. Find Ipswich, for the geographically challenged it's in the anus of Britain at the bottom of the big East Anglian bum.
How many red dots do you see? One number 78, Aldeburgh and that's a 50 minute drive. Next closest, number 99 Royal Worlington & Cambridge. Everything else is blinking miles away so do me a favour and stop moaning that you have so many great courses on your doorstep but GM have got them in the wrong order.
Rant over.
Move hoose....problem solved.
Would if I could but my missus wears the trousers in our hoose. Stuck in sodding Suffolk for ever!
