Can you mess with standard scratch?

[sawtooth]

We had our open yesterday where we played off the stones on white tees SSS 71.

Men comps are usually white tees and of late the SSS has been always been 71 and matches what is printed on the card so no issues there.

However in the bar afterwards someone mentioned that regular club comps off whites always used to be played using SSS of 70. Card stayed as 71 but override on the system to 70.

We assume the reason was that the course normally is not set up to make use of 2 back tee boxes on a couple of holes. These tees are in a totally different position and set back quite a bit compared to the other tees unlike other holes. Therefore shortening the course a fair bit.

Some argued that this seemed logical and others said no it shouldn't be done you can't mess with the SSS.

To complicate things a bit a "visitor" from the other club that plays on the same course ( 2 golf clubs operating from one golf complex) said that we've always left our SSS 71 and if yours was adjusted to 70 then your handicaps would be wrong and could be unfair when playing matches against them.

My head was hurting by the end of all the discussion about cuts, buffer, etc.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You cannot change SSS - the course is rated and it is given a SSS and it must stay that unless any changes are made and the course is re rated

Maybe they are getting confused with CSS which can change dependant on the scores etc

Now you could have two course ratings depending if you have two totally different tees etc

You should have a certificate somewhere from when the course was last rated and that SSS must be put onto the system.

 

[sawtooth]

Definitely SSS not CSS.

The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Definitely SSS not CSS.

The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.

Nope you can't do that

For HC Q purposes the course must within 100 yards total of the measured SSS course - the rules are quite clear on that

Moving the tees around and adjusting SSS is wrong and that guy shouldn't be near a golf role

 

[rulefan]

Definitely SSS not CSS.

The course was measured some time ago and whites are SSS 71 and yellows 69.

As mentioned the course is not normally set up for white tee distance and the past secretary used artistic license to adjust SSS to 70 presumably to redress the balance.

Within scope of clubs to do that or not? It's 71 now and that's how it will stay so now just a hypothetical question.

Does the change in length of these two holes reduce the course length by more than 100 yards?

If so, the SSS should be reduced by 1 stroke. But this CONGU facility is really intended for temporary course changes.
If the alternate set up is to be used regularly it should be rated formally.

However, it would seem your course has not yet been assessed under the new USGA system. When this is done (in the next year or so) your club should ask for the alternate tees to be rated also. This will legitimise the situation.

Edit:

When the course was last rated, was it with these tees in the far back position or in a forward position?
Can you tell me the length of both versions?

 

[Wilson]

We had our open yesterday where we played off the stones on white tees SSS 71.

Men comps are usually white tees and of late the SSS has been always been 71 and matches what is printed on the card so no issues there.

However in the bar afterwards someone mentioned that regular club comps off whites always used to be played using SSS of 70. Card stayed as 71 but override on the system to 70.

We assume the reason was that the course normally is not set up to make use of 2 back tee boxes on a couple of holes. These tees are in a totally different position and set back quite a bit compared to the other tees unlike other holes. Therefore shortening the course a fair bit.

Some argued that this seemed logical and others said no it shouldn't be done you can't mess with the SSS.

To complicate things a bit a "visitor" from the other club that plays on the same course ( 2 golf clubs operating from one golf complex) said that we've always left our SSS 71 and if yours was adjusted to 70 then your handicaps would be wrong and could be unfair when playing matches against them.

My head was hurting by the end of all the discussion about cuts, buffer, etc.

I can't help with your question, but are you talking about Downshire? If so I played yesterday, those two holes with the tees pushed back, really change those holes.

 

[sawtooth]

Does the change in length of these two holes reduce the course length by more than 100 yards?

If so, the SSS should be reduced by 1 stroke. But this CONGU facility is really intended for temporary course changes.
If the alternate set up is to be used regularly it should be rated formally.

However, it would seem your course has not yet been assessed under the new USGA system. When this is done (in the next year or so) your club should ask for the alternate tees to be rated also. This will legitimise the situation.

Edit:

When the course was last rated, was it with these tees in the far back position or in a forward position?
Can you tell me the length of both versions?

Yes probably distance is 100yds plus shorter.

Course was measure in the past of those back tee positions which are rarely in use. It does appear that we've used that ruling to reduce the SSS albeit on a semi permanent basis. My guess is that it began as a temporary arrangement with best intentions but stayed that way because works to those tee boxes was never carried out.

No we have not been remeasured yet, will all course get remeasured? EGU said they were doing around 2000 over the next couple of years (back in February).

If we play it as SSS 71 on a shorter course than it was measured I assume our handicaps could be skewed a little bit? Perhaps making it easier to get cut and making our handicaps less competitive away from home? Is that right?

 

[sawtooth]

I can't help with your question, but are you talking about Downshire? If so I played yesterday, those two holes with the tees pushed back, really change those holes.

Yes indeed although the back tee on the 8th wasn't as far back as it can go.

The 4th hole imakes a big difference to difficulty and many tees were as far back as they could go hence playing to the correct SSS.

 

[rulefan]

Yes probably distance is 100yds plus shorter.

Course was measure in the past of those back tee positions which are rarely in use. It does appear that we've used that ruling to reduce the SSS albeit on a semi permanent basis. My guess is that it began as a temporary arrangement with best intentions but stayed that way because works to those tee boxes was never carried out.

No we have not been remeasured yet, will all course get remeasured? EGU said they were doing around 2000 over the next couple of years (back in February).

If we play it as SSS 71 on a shorter course than it was measured I assume our handicaps could be skewed a little bit? Perhaps making it easier to get cut and making our handicaps less competitive away from home? Is that right?

I suggest you stick with 70/71 when playing from the shorter/longer tees. That will prevent the skewing effect.

England Golf (ie EG not EGU) have a target of 2020 - unlikely though.

If your club has not already got one, you can get a 'temporary' rating for the longer course from EG. Or they may simply confirm what you are doing now (more likely).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I suggest you stick with 70/71 when playing from the shorter/longer tees. That will prevent the skewing effect.

England Golf (ie EG not EGU) have a target of 2020 - unlikely though.

If your club has not already got one, you can get a 'temporary' rating for the longer course from EG. Or they may simply confirm what you are doing now (more likely).

We spoke to a course assessor and the moving of SSS is only for temporary course changes and for clubs to still play HC Q on that course. Moving it around based on tees without proper assessment surely is not the correct way of doing it - the club have clearly not be doing things correctly for a while and you surely can't compound that by continuing to carry on the same way. That gives clubs license to just move around tees and SSS as they wish

I would suggest the club start to use the course of the whites that has been measured an assessed and use the SSS assigned to that and then look to have the other tees assessed separately asap

 

[sawtooth]

Thats very useful thanks.

It makes perfect sense playing SSS 70 when whites are much closer to yellows but at the same time I didn't want to stray from convention.

I will run it by the committee and the EGU as well.

 

[rulefan]

then look to have the other tees assessed separately asap

I'm not sure if you meant all 18 holes or just the hole affected. You can't just rate one hole as the calculations relate to the 18 holes. Re-rating just one set of tees (white) for 18 holes would take a minimum of 3-4 hours plus a few hours paperwork.

I doubt that the county would be happy to take time out to do an individual assessment of two holes (even if it worked) or one set of tees when
a) they will be doing a full assessment of all tees (red, yellow, white etc) within the next couple of years anyway
b) they will be up to their eyes in assessing courses that need doing because of major changes that have been made since last rated
c) the present rated tees will have been assessed under the old EGU system which is not directly compatible with the new USGA system used by EG.
I'm not clear on whether the official rating is 70 for the short tees or 71 for the longer tees. But it is possible that the USGA rating could shift the Course Rating (SSS) one stroke up or down. So depending on which have been EGU rated the shorter course could now be 69 or 71 (or the longer 70 or 72). Which would be confusing if only the one set of tees are rated.

My expectation is that EG will take a pragmatic view and allow the 'temporary' situation to continue pro tem.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm not sure if you meant all 18 holes or just the hole affected. You can't just rate one hole as the calculations relate to the 18 holes. Re-rating just one set of tees (white) for 18 holes would take a minimum of 3-4 hours plus a few hours paperwork.

I doubt that the county would be happy to take time out to do an individual assessment of two holes (even if it worked) or one set of tees when
a) they will be doing a full assessment of all tees (red, yellow, white etc) within the next couple of years anyway
b) they will be up to their eyes in assessing courses that need doing because of major changes that have been made since last rated
c) the present rated tees will have been assessed under the old EGU system which is not directly compatible with the new USGA system used by EG.
I'm not clear on whether the official rating is 70 for the short tees or 71 for the longer tees. But it is possible that the USGA rating could shift the Course Rating (SSS) one stroke up or down. So depending on which have been EGU rated the shorter course could now be 69 or 71 (or the longer 70 or 72). Which would be confusing if only the one set of tees are rated.

My expectation is that EG will take a pragmatic view and allow the 'temporary' situation to continue pro tem.

From what sawtooth has said the longer tees are the rated measured course. For some reason at some stage in the past they played of other shorter tees and used white tee being shorter than normal decided to decrease the SSS manually - if it was because of course works it's allowed on a temp basis but it seems that they just have kept doing it regardless of any course work which for me is clearly not allowed. So they should imo only be playing HC Q comps of the measured course ( within 100 yards ) - if they have some other tees that can be used but outside 100 yards they can get them measured as well as possibly an (b tee ) for those holes - it's what the county are doing for us for a hole which has a longer tee on

 

[rulefan]

I am surprised. Had the original tees been rated under USGA or EGU?
Certified measurements are one thing but landing areas and obstacles are another. Is the county doing a rating process? If so, under which protocol?