Can I take a provisional.....

[doublebogey7]

If you know or are virtually certain that your original ball is OOB or in a water hazard, you are right and the 2nd ball will be 3 off the tee. However if there is any doubt then you are still entitled to play a provisional ball. It's really just a means to speed up play and to stop you having to walk back to the teeing ground or the previous spot if the original ball is OOB or lost outside a water hazard.

To Quote yourself please show me were it says this in the Rules??

Ok I'll help you, it does not the correct rule is 27-2 - if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1.

So if a ball is "virtually certain to be out of bounds" you are permitted to play a provisional.

 

[delc]

To Quote yourself please show me were it says this in the Rules??

Ok I'll help you, it does not the correct rule is 27-2 - if a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1.

So if a ball is "virtually certain to be out of bounds" you are permitted to play a provisional.

I believe the word 'may' is conditional. If the original ball is definitely known to be OOB or in a water hazard, then your next shot cannot be a provisional!

 

[doublebogey7]

I believe the word 'may' is conditional. If the original ball is definitely known to be OOB or in a water hazard, then your next shot cannot be a provisional!

Yes but that's not what you said in post 14. As others have tried to tell you, it is vital that we are precise in our language in order to avoid further confusion.

 

[delc]

Yes but that's not what you said in post 14. As others have tried to tell you, it is vital that we are precise in our language in order to avoid further confusion.

I refer you to Rule 26-1, which I was also trying to cover for the ball in a water hazard case. That does include the words 'known or virtually known'. :mmm:

 

[doublebogey7]

I refer you to Rule 26-1, which I was also trying to cover. That does include the words 'known or virtually known'.

Clutching at straws again Dec, what has 26-1 got to do with a discussion on Provisional Balls.

 

[sawtooth]

I don't really understand where the "abuse" of playing a provisional mentioned in OP comes from.
If the player finds his provional first and goes ahead and plays it, it's cost him 2 shots.

I was coming from the angle that a player could take a provisional when really there may not be just cause to. In this case the player could be using a provisional to practice his next tee shot? to warm up a little more? see what he/she did wrong (with the first shot)?

There is still some latitude to play the rules here a bit because the player could argue "reasonable possibility" of the first ball being lost in a lot of cases! For example, whats stopping someone doing that on vitually every tee shot when the ball is not in view from the tee?

 

[delc]

Clutching at straws again Dec, what has 26-1 got to do with a discussion on Provisional Balls.

Because you can't play a provisional ball if it is known or virtually certain that your original ball has gone into a water hazard!

 

[Colin L]

I refer you to Rule 26-1, which I was also trying to cover for the ball in a water hazard case. That does include the words 'known or virtually known'. :mmm:

Nowhere in Rule 26-1 will you find the phrase "known or virtually known."

 

[delc]

Nowhere in Rule 26-1 will you find the phrase "known or virtually known."

26-1 - Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual*certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the*hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

If a ball is found*in*the water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in*the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and*distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball*as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

 

[Foxholer]

Nowhere in Rule 26-1 will you find the phrase "known or virtually known."

26-1 - Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual*certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the*hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

If a ball is found*in*the water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in*the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:......

So Colin was correct - as almost always!

Remember that it's essential to read The Rules literally (and correctly) and not try to interpret them. To do otherwise introduces the distinct possibility of ruling incorrectly! In this case, you have 'seen' the word 'certain' as 'known' - or simply misquoted it - and not checked when Colin prompted with his post!

 

[Colin L]

Yep, 26-1. That's the one that doesn't have the phrase "known or virtually known" in it.

Del, it really is important to be precise in dealing with Rules questions and to be exact in using the wording of the Rules in much the same way as you would expect your lawyer to be precise and exact in dealing with the law on your behalf. "Virtually known" is not an expression used or explained in the Rules, whereas "virtually certain" is used and is fully glossed in Decision 26-1/1. Using the correct one is helpful to other readers of the forum; using the incorrect one is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

The requirement for accuracy and precision is not ridiculous pedantry.

 

[Foxholer]

I don't really understand where the "abuse" of playing a provisional mentioned in OP comes from.
If the player finds his provional first and goes ahead and plays it, it's cost him 2 shots.

A Sawtooth explained and Rulefan implied,the abuse is that playing a 'Provisional' simply after a poor drive (say) is Practice on the Course as opposed to the time-saving mechanism that the Provisional is about!

Btw. I presume it was simply for brevity and you realise that it doesn't automatically cost 2 shots 'if the player finds his provisional first and goes ahead and plays it'. There a rules that cover when the provisional becomes the ball in play.

 

[delc]

Yep, 26-1. That's the one that doesn't have the phrase "known or virtually known" in it.

Del, it really is important to be precise in dealing with Rules questions and to be exact in using the wording of the Rules in much the same way as you would expect your lawyer to be precise and exact in dealing with the law on your behalf. "Virtually known" is not an expression used or explained in the Rules, whereas "virtually certain" is used and is fully glossed in Decision 26-1/1. Using the correct one is helpful to other readers of the forum; using the incorrect one is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading.

The requirement for accuracy and precision is not ridiculous pedantry.

Sorry for the typo! Did mean to say 'known or virtually certain'

 

[Foxholer]

...What controls abuse of the provisional ball rule? If someone wanted for example to get some extra tee shot practice in a round, it appears they can just say "worried about that one I will hit another". Who can argue if the player decides that even if it may be clear to PP's that all is well....

Speaking of precision! The wording above is not sufficient to define the next shot as a Provisional! Decision 27-2a/1 refers. http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2a-1

 

[delc]

Speaking of precision! The wording above is not sufficient to define the next shot as a Provisional! Decision 27-2a/1 refers. http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2a-1

Or to put it simply, you have to declare it as a 'Provisional Ball' to your opponent, marker or fellow competitors. If you don't, or use any other form of words, it will become the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. You also have to play a provisional before you 'go forward to search'. If you need to go a few yards forward to get another ball or club from your bag, this is an exception to the rule.

 

[chrisd]

You also have to play a provisional before you 'go forward to search'. If you need to go a few yards forward to get another ball or club from your bag, this is an exception to the rule.

"A few yards" - not exactly

A.A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)

So it doesn't appear to be " a few yards" to me

 

[delc]

"A few yards" - not exactly

A.A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)

So it doesn't appear to be " a few yards" to me

Well, if you had left your golf bag 50 yards in front of a way back tee, you would be allowed to go forward to get another ball or club out of it to play your provisional with. Any more would be pushing it too far. I believe this exception is a fairly recent decision so that players couldn't get trapped on the teeing ground. It's decision 27-2a/1.5 by the way.

 

[Foxholer]

Or to put it simply, you have to declare it as a 'Provisional Ball' to your opponent, marker or fellow competitors. If you don't, or use any other form of words, it will become the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.

That's not what the Rule states! And I go by the wording of the Rule! You should too - without interpreting it (as you seem to continue to do!). I always confirm by asking 'Provisional?' if I haven't heard it already.

You also have to play a provisional before you 'go forward to search'. If you need to go a few yards forward to get another ball or club from your bag, this is an exception to the rule.

Chris has quoted the answer to Decision 27-2a/1.5 http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2a-1.5
which asked for clarification of the 'going forward' phrase.

 

[delc]

That's not what the Rule states! And I go by the wording of the Rule! You should too - without interpreting it (as you seem to continue to do!). I always confirm by asking 'Provisional?' if I haven't heard it already.



Chris has quoted the answer to Decision 27-2a/1.5 http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2a-1.5
which asked for clarification of the 'going forward' phrase.

Oh God, how many pedants do we have on here!

The exact rule 27-2 reads:
a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his*opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. +
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.
(Order of play from teeing ground - see Rule 10-3)

+ But see Decision 17-2a/1.5

 

[Colin L]

Oh God, how many pedants do we have on here!

Here we go again. It is not pedantic to ask for accuracy and correctness.

You said
You have to declare it as a 'Provisional Ball' to your opponent, marker or fellow competitors. If you don't, or use any other form of words, it will become the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.
That is wrong.

You said
Well, if you had left your golf bag 50 yards in front of a way back tee, you would be allowed to go forward to get another ball or club out of it to play your provisional with.
While true, that is quite simply not what Decision 27-2a/1.5 says. Firstly, it is about giving a rough measure of what constitutes a short distance. Secondly, it is about allowing a short distance before deciding it would save time to play a provisional - a little thinking time for deciding that it would be a good time-saving idea in other words. Then, it separates out as a different matter going forward more than the short distance for a specific purpose like getting another club.