Can I take a provisional.....

[Foxholer]

Oh God, how many pedants do we have on here!

The exact rule 27-2 reads:
a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his*opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. +
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.
(Order of play from teeing ground - see Rule 10-3)

+ But see Decision 17-2a/1.5

So explain what's pedantic about my post!

The accusation of pedantry (and being wrong) could easily made about your insistence on the words 'Provisional Ball' being announced! That's certainly not in the Rule! :angry:

Well, if you had left your golf bag 50 yards in front of a way back tee, you would be allowed to go forward to get another ball or club out of it to play your provisional with. Any more would be pushing it too far. I believe this exception is a fairly recent decision so that players couldn't get trapped on the teeing ground. It's decision 27-2a/1.5 by the way.

And once again you have failed to read and understand it! Read the last sentence (starting 'However') again!!!! :rant:

Again - and maybe the message might through - it's accuracy/precision (something you seem painfully incapable of), not pedantry!

 

[chrisd]

Oh God, how many pedants do we have on here!

It's a compliment Fox ( I think) cos if it were up to Del, judging by his help in the rules section we would have probably doubled the count on "The myths on the Rules of Golf" . He's so helpful but never quite gets it right!

 

[Foxholer]

It's a compliment Fox ( I think) cos if it were up to Del, judging by his help in the rules section we would have probably doubled the count on "The myths on the Rules of Golf" . He's so helpful but never quite gets it right!

:rofl:

That thought had crossed my mind!

[pedant mode]For 'compliment' read 'positive' and I think the 'but' should have been 'because', but then again maybe not as it just confuses[/pedant mode]

 

[delc]

Here we go again. It is not pedantic to ask for accuracy and correctness.

You said
You have to declare it as a 'Provisional Ball' to your opponent, marker or fellow competitors. If you don't, or use any other form of words, it will become the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance.
That is wrong.

Why is it wrong? You have to inform your opponent in match play, or marker or fellow competitor in stroke play that you intend to play a provisional ball. If you don't mention the words "provisional ball", or at least "provisional", any ball you subsequently play becomes the ball in play, and the original ball is lost (even if it in reality it isn't). This is exercising your right to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance at any time, as per Rule 27-1. I have had this issue come up several times both as a player and a club competition secretary. Saying "I'll play another ball" or something similar, or saying nothing, does not constitute playing a provisional ball!

 

[Spuddy]

Why is it wrong? You have to inform your opponent in match play, or marker or fellow competitor in stroke play that you intend to play a provisional ball. If you don't mention the words "provisional ball", or at least "provisional", any ball you subsequently play becomes the ball in play, and the original ball is lost (even if it in reality it isn't). This is exercising your right to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance at any time, as per Rule 27-1. I have had this issue come up several times both as a player and a club competition secretary. Saying "I'll play another ball" or something similar, or saying nothing, does not constitute playing a provisional ball!

What about, for example, if you said 'I intend to proceed in accordance with rule 27-2a'?

 

[rulefan]

Why is it wrong?
If you don't mention the words "provisional ball", or at least "provisional",

Because you missed some important words.

The player's statement must specifically mention the words "provisional ball" or must make it clear that he is proceeding under Rule 27-2a.

 

[duncan mackie]

Well, if you had left your golf bag 50 yards in front of a way back tee, you would be allowed to go forward to get another ball or club out of it to play your provisional with. Any more would be pushing it too far. I believe this exception is a fairly recent decision so that players couldn't get trapped on the teeing ground. It's decision 27-2a/1.5 by the way.

it was nothing to do with getting trapped on the teeing ground at all. you have always been able to go and get a different club or ball for the purpose of proceeding under 27-2.

the reason for the change in the rule was to both give guidance on the scale of going forwards and to provide for the situation where it's only by going forwards that a player becomes aware of the need, or appropriateness, of playing a provisional due to contours and visibility from the tee.

 

[chrisd]

Well, if you had left your golf bag 50 yards in front of a way back tee, you would be allowed to go forward to get another ball or club out of it to play your provisional with. Any more would be pushing it too far. I believe this exception is a fairly recent decision so that players couldn't get trapped on the teeing ground. It's decision 27-2a/1.5 by the way.

Thanks for confirming what I told you, and you, missed saying in your earlier summing up of the rule. You also gave missed the point that nowhere is the phrase " a few yards " used in regard to distance that is exceeded before you can decide to play a provisional where you don't have to walk to get a spare ball or change club etc, but I don't want to be accused of pedantry !

 

[North Mimms]

A Sawtooth explained and Rulefan implied,the abuse is that playing a 'Provisional' simply after a poor drive (say) is Practice on the Course as opposed to the time-saving mechanism that the Provisional is about!

Btw. I presume it was simply for brevity and you realise that it doesn't automatically cost 2 shots 'if the player finds his provisional first and goes ahead and plays it'. There a rules that cover when the provisional becomes the ball in play.

I understood that, but didn't want to get into quoting long bits of irrelevant rules (see above)

I slightly misundertood the OP and didn't realise they meant playing a pointless provisional as sneaky practice

 

[Foxholer]

Why is it wrong? You have to inform your opponent in match play, or marker or fellow competitor in stroke play that you intend to play a provisional ball. If you don't mention the words "provisional ball", or at least "provisional", any ball you subsequently play becomes the ball in play, and the original ball is lost (even if it in reality it isn't). This is exercising your right to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance at any time, as per Rule 27-1. I have had this issue come up several times both as a player and a club competition secretary. Saying "I'll play another ball" or something similar, or saying nothing, does not constitute playing a provisional ball!

That's certainly not good enough to indicate that it's a Provisional. While it may be best to state 'Provisional Ball', the Rule doesn't insist on it. 'Provisional' or 'Provo' that I often use, for example, is sufficient to 'inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball' - which is what the Rule does say!

The key to applying The Rules (and Decisions) correctly is to simply do what they say literally - no more; no less. Adding stuff like requiring the words 'Provisional Ball' to be used is Myth Creation! Ignoring stuff - like you did with the related decision - is just incompetence!

 

[North Mimms]

That's certainly not good enough to indicate that it's a Provisional. While it may be best to state 'Provisional Ball', the Rule doesn't insist on it. 'Provisional' or 'Provo' that I often use, for example, is sufficient to 'inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball' - which is what the Rule does say!

The key to applying The Rules (and Decisions) correctly is to simply do what they say literally - no more; no less. Adding stuff like requiring the words 'Provisional Ball' to be used is Myth Creation! Ignoring stuff - like you did with the related decision - is just incompetence!

Using the term "provisional" is good practice, but yes- there are other correct ways of informing your PP that you are playing a provisional.
A few weeks ago I intended to play 3 off the tee- I said "I'm putting another ball into play, this is NOT a provisional" and still my PP didn't undertand and waffled on about the correct way to look or not look for my first ball...

 

[chrisd]

A few weeks ago I intended to play 3 off the tee- I said "I'm putting another ball into play, this is NOT a provisional" and still my PP didn't undertand and waffled on about the correct way to look or not look for my first ball...

It wasn't Del was it?

 

[delc]

Because you missed some important words.

The player's statement must specifically mention the words "provisional ball" or must make it clear that he is proceeding under Rule 27-2a.

Suppose you could write it out on a card or say it in sign language if you opponent/marker/fellow competitor happens to be deaf!

 

[delc]

it was nothing to do with getting trapped on the teeing ground at all. you have always been able to go and get a different club or ball for the purpose of proceeding under 27-2.

the reason for the change in the rule was to both give guidance on the scale of going forwards and to provide for the situation where it's only by going forwards that a player becomes aware of the need, or appropriateness, of playing a provisional due to contours and visibility from the tee.

I've seen a video where a rules expert from the R&A explained that the whole point of Decision 27-2a/1.5 was to stop players being trapped on the tee if they had left their golf bag some distance ahead of the tee! :mmm:

 

[Ethan]

That's certainly not good enough to indicate that it's a Provisional. While it may be best to state 'Provisional Ball', the Rule doesn't insist on it. 'Provisional' or 'Provo' that I often use, for example, is sufficient to 'inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball' - which is what the Rule does say!

The key to applying The Rules (and Decisions) correctly is to simply do what they say literally - no more; no less. Adding stuff like requiring the words 'Provisional Ball' to be used is Myth Creation! Ignoring stuff - like you did with the related decision - is just incompetence!

It is also fine to ask a PP if the ball he is addressing is a provo, and if he confirms same, all good.

 

[Foxholer]

I've seen a video where a rules expert from the R&A explained that the whole point of Decision 27-2a/1.5 was to stop players being trapped on the tee if they had left their golf bag some distance ahead of the tee! :mmm:

Link? Otherwise I'd be inclined to call B/S as the bit regarding prevention of getting 'trapped' on a tee is the last sentence only (the one you seemed to ignore earlier!) starting 'However...'.

It is also fine to ask a PP if the ball he is addressing is a provo, and if he confirms same, all good.

See post #38 - and I fibbed in it - I sometimes ask 'Provo?'. [pedant mode] PP/ Opponent/FC [/pedant mode]

 

[Spuddy]

I've seen a video where a rules expert from the R&A explained that the whole point of Decision 27-2a/1.5 was to stop players being trapped on the tee if they had left their golf bag some distance ahead of the tee! :mmm:

Well he's not much of an expert then as here's the previous incarnation of the decision. Note that you've always been able to retrieve a club/ball and the significant change was the '50 yard' section.

27-2a/1.5 Meaning of “Goes forward to Search”

q. With respect to Rule 27-2a, when has a player gone forward to search for the original ball such that a provisional ball cannot be played?


A. the sole purpose of Rule 27-2 is to enable the player to save time. the only way he can effectively do so is to play the provisional ball before going forward for the purpose of searching for the original ball. however, this provision should not be so narrowly interpreted to preclude a player from playing a provisional ball even though he has proceeded from where he last played in the direction of the original ball, e.g. in retrieving a ball or a different club to play the provisional ball. the committee must consider all of the relevant facts in determining if the player did in fact go forward to search for the original ball.

 

[rulefan]

I've seen a video where a rules expert from the R&A explained that the whole point of Decision 27-2a/1.5 was to stop players being trapped on the tee if they had left their golf bag some distance ahead of the tee! :mmm:

The revision was nothing to do with a distant bag.

The Decisions book itself explains that 27-2a/1.5 was "revised to allow the player to go forward a short distance to determine whether it would save time to play a provisional ball"

 

[delc]

The revision was nothing to do with a distant bag.

The Decisions book itself explains that 27-2a/1.5 was "revised to allow the player to go forward a short distance to determine whether it would save time to play a provisional ball"

Maybe both explanations are valid.

 

[rulefan]

Maybe both explanations are valid.

The original version already allowed the player to go to a distant bag. The only change relates to 'how far' he may go to 'suss out' the situation.

A. the sole purpose of Rule 27-2 is to enable the player to save time. the only way he can effectively do so is to play the provisional ball before going forward for the purpose of searching for the original ball. however, this provision should not be so narrowly interpreted to preclude a player from playing a provisional ball even though he has proceeded from where he last played in the direction of the original ball, e.g. in retrieving a ball or a different club to play the provisional ball. the committee must consider all of the relevant facts in determining if the player did in fact go forward to search for the original ball.

A player will be considered to have gone forward to search when he has proceeded more than a short distance towards the place where his original ball is likely to be. As the purpose of Rule 27-2a is to save time, the player is permitted to go forward a short distance before determining that it would save time to return promptly to play a provisional ball. As a guideline, a player should be considered to have proceeded more than a short distance, and therefore to have gone forward to search, if he has proceeded more than approximately 50 yards. However, this guideline does not preclude a player from playing a provisional ball when he has proceeded more than a short distance for another specific purpose, such as to retrieve a ball or a different club to play a provisional ball, or to confer with a referee. (Revised)