SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Ah good - Ken Clarke is on QT
Brexit Two Months On
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
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Foxholer
Blackballed
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Why?
I like him - and he wears Hush Puppies
Foxholer
Blackballed
So do I (like him). Not keen on HPs though - except in a line of a JB song! He should be wearing UK made equivalents too!
I hope there's also a Brexiter to 'balance' his views/temper his demands!
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Watched QT last night. And I am sorry dear Brexiteers - but no matter what the forum is (excepting this one of course) - be it QT or Any Questions or a radio phone-in - in seems to me that so many of those who voted to Leave are either completely unable to articulate why; don't seem to have much idea why; or are all over the place with misconceptions and misunderstanding and their rationale - that I do despair that it is on their votes that we are leaving.
I am not saying they are stupid or anything like that - because clearly they believe that leaving is the right thing to do and OK - so be it. I just wish they could be more persuasive. But so many of their arguments just don't stack up - for me.
Hi ho, hi ho, it's out the EU we go. Da da dee dum, da da dee dum, hi ho, hi ho...to infinity and beyond.
And I am allowed to despair.
I am not saying they are stupid or anything like that - because clearly they believe that leaving is the right thing to do and OK - so be it. I just wish they could be more persuasive. But so many of their arguments just don't stack up - for me.
Hi ho, hi ho, it's out the EU we go. Da da dee dum, da da dee dum, hi ho, hi ho...to infinity and beyond.
And I am allowed to despair.
Be honest, you wouldn't accept their arguments if they were carved in wood and you were beaten about the head with it. And they wouldn't stack up for you because you already have your standpoint. They voted for their reasons, and I respect those reasons even though I disagree with them and the outcome. I've heard many Brexiters articulate their desires and I feel many of their arguments do stack up. They might not be financially as sound as the status quo but they do have a fundamental basis in a desired outcome. Sovereignty and immigration stack up. Whether they are achievable or negotiable is another story but they are easy to understand. Maybe you need to be more understanding instead of blinkered.
The campaign by Remain did little to persuade otherwise, and like the Scottish Ref campaign was riddled with fear. Even the Treasury admonished Osbourne for the numbers he was using in his pieces. Both sides performed poorly in presenting their respective cases.
By all means go ahead and despair, and whilst you are doing that others wanting out are rejoicing. Its a political choice with both sides be right.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I am never quite sure why the remainers are so sure that if the UK stay in the EU, every thing will be wonderful. Even the ECB are extremely worried by the financial situation within the EU. The whole thing could go very wrong, very quickly. If Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Irelands economies fail, then the EU is going to be in a very awkward place. Would the UK still be better off in?
hors limite
Assistant Pro
I am sorry Mr Baggins but sovereignty and immigration don't stack up when compared to the enormous potential economic downside. On top of that , immigrants from outside the EU outnumber those from within Europe and those numbers won't change. Add in all the exceptions that are being paraded and the impact on numbers is looking modest. As for " sovereignty" can someone spell out and I mean spell out what are the substantial real rewards of this nebulous claim.
I often disagree with SILH on a great number of issues but I'm with him on this one. Just the potential for job losses, many skilled and well paid and inflation, which will hit the poorest the hardest are enough to frighten the hell out of me.
When the real impact is felt, I hope that the Brexiteers will tell those on the dole that they were right and that it was all worth it.
jp5
Q-School Graduate
Well Question Time last night was a dire reflection of Hartlepool. No wonder that bloke with a canoe faked his death and buggered off to Panama.
Booing a Polish woman for saying she felt unwelcome, absolutely disgusting.
What I wonder about is what these people will turn their hate towards once Brexit inevitably turns out to not be the golden solution they think it is.
Booing a Polish woman for saying she felt unwelcome, absolutely disgusting.
What I wonder about is what these people will turn their hate towards once Brexit inevitably turns out to not be the golden solution they think it is.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
The audience was pretty dire - booing the Polish woman because she said she felt unwanted, and rubbishing the teacher who said that her pupils were saying things about immigrants that would only recently have been unacceptable - well - QED...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-no-longer-feels-welcome-UK-Brexit-vote.html
And it was the nature of the statements and actions of so many of the audience that prompted me to post above.
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Sorry but you're seeing it from the same standpoint as Hugh. You comparing those issues against something else. I'm not saying you're wrong from the perspective of inflation or jobs, or whatever standpoint YOU choose. But some Brexiteers saw the choice as sovereignty, others from immigration others from legislation. They are all right, as are you, because its based on a choice for something different.
Many Brexiteers acknowledged there'd be bumps in the road, and a downturn, and are willing to accept that to win their freedom from, to them, a growingly intrusive federal state. They are willing to accept that cost for change, and you are not. You want the inclusivity of the EU, and they don't.
You can scream from the roof tops that they are wrong, but in their eyes they are right.
V
vkurup
Guest
Most of those who voted for Leave apparently voted with their hearts to get sovereignty and reduce immigration or 'to protest, but without wanting to leave the EU'. I can understand the first 2 situations, but I pity those who cast their votes in protest and then expect a different result!! I am assuming that as a responsible adult who is eligible to vote, they understand how elections work and how every vote counts.
Equally I feel sorry for those who blame the Remain leaders for doing too little. I agree they did not do a very good job, but by blaming them you do not have the right to absolve yourself of the way you voted. Every election the Far Right or the Far Left makes a very good emotional argument on why they are the best people to be voted in, but do you vote for them everytime? Perhaps no, because you take your time to understand what the others are offering - even if they make a weaker argument. Sorry, any adult blaming others for why you voted Leave is like blaming your goalkeeper & team for not stopping you from scoring an own goal..
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I just wish I could hear more Leavers articulating thought-through reasoning so that I know that they actually did know what they were voting for.
Because, as you say, my perception that Leaving will be so wrong, may be just that - a perception based upon my own 'prejudices'. There may be solid bases on the benefits of Leaving that more than balance out the downside. But most of the time I just don't hear that. And I didn't hear any coming from the Hartlepool audience last night. All I heard was stuff that reinforced my own 'prejudices'.
As an aside, the Deutsche Bank is close to folding. It will almost certainly need a massive top up. Germany has choices; print money and see inflation rise, call in some of its debts with Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal & Ireland, go the EU member states for a top up. If it chooses option two, those countries will struggle to pay their Public Service. Option three will see net contributors, UK being one of them, paying out. Option one won't do Merkel any good immediately before an election.
In my post, which you quoted, I blamed both sides for a poor performance. I don't blame anyone for how I cast my vote(to Remain) as I researched the hell out of the subject. I dislike the EU even more now than I did before the start of the referendum campaign but my preference was in but with a cut back on the federalism.
Going to Hartlepool is very poor by the BBC. I know it very well. Getting a balanced audience from there is nigh on impossible. I'm sure, as many know, going to other very poor towns will give a warped view.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Problem is that there are a lot of poor towns and so a lot of folks thinking like those in the H/Pool audience last night. And where there may be misconceptions about what Brexit will offer, it is going to be the folks of these poor towns who will be seeking a change and an improvement to their life. I hope Brexit delivers what they voted for - but I am not sure from what I heard from H/Pool that it will.
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And getting poorer. The food bank I do some charity work for is seeing unprecedented demands, and for a wider scope of service, e.g. electricity and gas cards.
The Hartlepool's of the world need a voice but is it balanced journalism to choose such a poor place...?
Being Devil's Advocate, I know its been said before, and there's probably some middle ground to the reality, but there will be some money available that was part of the contributions that the UK can now decide where to spend rather than having to conform to EU laws on not unfairly subsidising particular areas and industries.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
Isn't part of the supposed problem with politics now that such people don't have a voice or aren't listened to? Should the BBC only report the views of articulate middle classed people? Let's hear what they have to say, in all its horror.
Heard, absolutely!
Being heard in an unbalanced forum, no it shows them up. Look at others view on here of Hartlepool.
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