Brexit Two Months On

[SocketRocket]

Do you not read WHY I suggest it would be useful. This is not just some government policy that can be reversed by the next government. Apart from the fact that we know the end date we know nothing about what is going to happen and who is going to be engaged in discussions and when.

Your expectations for the Public to get an updated project plan on the preparation for Brexit negotiations is bizarre and unrealistic in my opinion.

 

[SocketRocket]

I thank you for these kind words.

No need they were not directed at you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Your expectations for the Public to get an updated project plan on the preparation for Brexit negotiations is bizarre and unrealistic in my opinion.

And I don't think that it is - or at least for parliament (and the public) to periodic reports of progress against a plan and 'what happens next'.

You might as well accept that we Remainers will not just shut up - democracy is a process not an event. There are questions to be answered and this is too important to just be left to the PM and a small coterie of ministers to decide upon - when the Leave majority was not in fact that significant - and they did not vote for any specific initial negotiation stance or end objectives - other than the rather simplistic, undefined but hugely significant one of leaving the EU.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

You might as well accept that we Remainers will not just shut up - democracy is a process not an event.

Is there not an argument then that whatever the Government says about Brexit, the hard-core Remainers won't accept it and say it's not good enough?

 

[NWJocko]

They don't need to be as the Scottish, Welsh and NI respective Governments are engaging with officials in Whitehall Government Departments on all Brexit matters. For example, on the EU Structural Funds - which accounts for an obscene amount of EU money and matched national contributions, officials from the Devolved Administrations are liaising directly with HMT officials on what funding programmes can be delivered during the exit negotiations; and what any future programmes will look like.

As I pointed out in my previous post, Devolved Administration officials are currently actively engaged in Brexit discussions with counterparts in Whitehall Departments, so in effect those Governments are being represented and there is an 'equal partnership' in operation.

Scotland is a country with it's own Government, so along with Wales and Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, will have a voice in the Brexit negotiations. However, in line with the devolved settlements, it is the Westminster Government that physically represents the UK in EU and international negotiations. It should also be noted that whenever Government officials attend EU meetings, they do so along agreed 'UK' lines.

:rofl: :thup: Yes I sometimes wonder whether all those meetings and conference calls I've been involved in since end June with officials from a number of Government departments, Devolved Administrations, and stakeholder representatives have not actually taken place; and we all have no idea what we're doing!!

Think I'll leave this thread alone now!!

DfT and SiLH

Please, please, please read and digest these posts from someone who does actually know what is going on.

Your constant, stereotypical sniping that "us wee Scots are being left out by the nasty English" is incredibly tiresome :thup:

I agree that publicising the fact that Scotland is in fact having an input would help shut up some of the usual SNP nonsense and I really wish they would but no need for you pair to keep perpetuating that on here now is there?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is there not an argument then that whatever the Government says about Brexit, the hard-core Remainers won't accept it and say it's not good enough?

I might say that as a Remainer I will keep my cards to myself in respect of what would be acceptable to me. No point in me revealing my objectives and areas of flexibility before the 'game of poke her (sic)' starts. But we will be 'poking' the side of the PM to remind her that we are here and not going away.

 

[Val]

But you must recall (and those who voted YES in IndyRef1 will not forget) that BT and the UK Gov stated that the only way to guarantee membership of the EU for Scotland was staying in the UK, and they were effusive in stating that Scotland is, and would continue to be, a valued and equal partner in the UK.

The Scottish Secretary is part of the UK Government. Though #1 representative of equal partner Scotland, Mundell is not on the Brexit core team when Angela Leadsom is. I am sure that looks good to many north of the border.

And it was the only way to guarantee it. The Eu you'll recall said if they want entry it was as a new state, you'll also recall the EU referendum was always known about pre indyref.

So at the time yes, it was the only guarantee.

I should add from a Scottish perspective, the fatuation with EU single market is harmful. The aim should be to retain and cement ties with the U.K. market as it is way more valuable to the Scottish economy than the EU market and the only way to guarantee that is to remain.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I might say that as a Remainer I will keep my cards to myself in respect of what would be acceptable to me. No point in me revealing my objectives and areas of flexibility before the 'game of poke her (sic)' starts. But we will be 'poking' the side of the PM to remind her that we are here and not going away.

Which you are fully entitled to do of course. You obviously care passionately in what you believe in and that is admirable. You do have the option of putting in a Freedom of Information request to DexEU asking for the kind of information outlined in one of your earlier posts - have you considered that route? And there's also the option of writing to your MP outlining your views and asking them to forward on to the Secretary of State concerned.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Which you are fully entitled to do of course. You obviously care passionately in what you believe in and that is admirable. You do have the option of putting in a Freedom of Information request to DexEU asking for the kind of information outlined in one of your earlier posts - have you considered that route? And there's also the option of writing to your MP outlining your views and asking them to forward on to the Secretary of State concerned.

All I am asking for is a bit of clarity about what is happening, and actually I am suggesting it as a simple means to shut up the SNP and their whinging. I am not contesting in any way what @PieMan is saying, in fact I had no doubt that the things @PieMan has said are going on were indeed going on before his confirmation.

I have accepted that Brexit is going ahead - I would like it to be as successful as possible - but I'd like to have some indication from the government that progress is being made towards an initial negotiation position and desired outcomes - I don't need to know what these are - and that the appropriate representation from the devolved governments is being involved at the appropriate points along the way. Nothing more.

Maybe I'll ask my MP - Mr Jeremy Hunt.

 

[Hobbit]

All I am asking for is a bit of clarity about what is happening, and actually I am suggesting it as a simple means to shut up the SNP and their whinging. I am not contesting in any way what @PieMan is saying, in fact I had no doubt that the things @PieMan has said are going on were indeed going on before his confirmation.

I have accepted that Brexit is going ahead - I would like it to be as successful as possible - but I'd like to have some indication from the government that progress is being made towards an initial negotiation position and desired outcomes - I don't need to know what these are - and that the appropriate representation from the devolved governments is being involved at the appropriate points along the way. Nothing more.

Maybe I'll ask my MP - Mr Jeremy Hunt.

I can understand your desire for clarity, just as I can see why the markets want it too. Clarity gives the EU an advantage, and splitting hairs about how much is safe to divulge is semantics. Markets might want it but it will weaken the UK's position. And without it there will be market turbulence in the short term but it will benefit the UK more to be circumspect.

 

[BubbaP]

I don't think we shall even leave.

Oh! Didn't you read your thread title?
Thought you had cracked time travel!

 

[ColchesterFC]

Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive.

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"?

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?

 

[Hacker Khan]

By

Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive.

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"?

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?

It is insular , isolationist and vastly overestimates our importance to the EU when it comes to how desperate they will be to give us a good deal. And if the brexiters couldn't see this coming then they were not trying very hard .

 

[USER1999]

By

It is insular , isolationist and vastly overestimates our importance to the EU when it comes to how desperate they will be to give us a good deal. And if the brexiters couldn't see this coming then they were not trying very hard .

But it's not just about money is it. Nothing is ever solely about money, whether it's indy ref 1, indy ref 2, Brexit, etc. There are other issues, that are being ignored. For me, freedom of movement within the EU is garbage. I work in North London, and it's swamped with eastern Europeans, who have hugely different values to me.

 

[Foxholer]

Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive.

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"?

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?

WTO rules for trade are a 'last resort', where a free trade agreement doesn't exist.

UK and all other EU members are WTO members. As a 'Customs Territory' the EU is also a member.

As such, but with a tiny number of specific exceptions, all WTO members must be given 'Most Favoured Nation' rates. So bumping tariffs solely for EU countries would break the rules!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can understand your desire for clarity, just as I can see why the markets want it too. Clarity gives the EU an advantage, and splitting hairs about how much is safe to divulge is semantics. Markets might want it but it will weaken the UK's position. And without it there will be market turbulence in the short term but it will benefit the UK more to be circumspect.

What possible advantage can the EU glean from knowing at a top level the process (and it's timescales) the government will go through to reach a definition of their initial negotiating position and objectives by end March?

 

[ColchesterFC]

WTO rules for trade are a 'last resort', where a free trade agreement doesn't exist.

UK and all other EU members are WTO members. As a 'Customs Territory' the EU is also a member.

As such, but with a tiny number of specific exceptions, all WTO members must be given 'Most Favoured Nation' rates. So bumping tariffs solely for EU countries would break the rules!

OK. Cheers for the reply. Was interested to know how hard ball the UK could play in negotiations. The EU are saying they won't allow access to the single market without free movement so wondered what the options are for the UK to try and change that position.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive.

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"?

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?

Or indeed if the UK were to present totally unacceptable terms that the EU couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade.

Because the EU is clearly saying there will be no negotiation before Art50 is triggered and we can forget any idea we might have about getting any indication from the EU prior to Art50 of areas where the EU might be flexible .

The UK knows what the EU red line is in respect of the single market and freedom of movement, if we do not present an initial set of objectives that accepts and reflects that position I suspect we will be told to shove it.

Because to Germany especially, the EU and a united Europe is of very different importance than it is to us. A senior German minister (or may have been their ambassador to the UK) said yesterday that if it came down to the unity of the rest of the EU and adherence to it's core principles - or Germany taking an economic hit - they would take the economic hit. I hope that our self importance does not cause us to ignore that possibility.

 

[JCW]

We are where we are today because a lot voted out without knowing the facts , example , guy I know from golf said to me when I asked him about it just after the vote , he said great in it , we got our country back , what have we got back then I asked him , did not have a clue , attack on EU citizens over here have gone up to as people , well to me they are bigots , me , I was all set to vote out but change my mind on the day as I did not have the facts about getting out and its still a guessing today .................. will it get better , how long will it take , who knows , some things about the EU needs changing , yes border control being one , but we can still stay in and say we want change or more controls on that , anyway I like many are now seeing the pound worth less and my aim to retire in the sun is on hold as the pound is weak , I like to see a stronger pound in or out ......just have to lump it for now ............EYG

 

[ColchesterFC]

The UK knows what the EU red line is in respect of the single market and freedom of movement, if we do not present an initial set of objectives that accepts and reflects that position I suspect we will be told to shove it.

And that's exactly where I think the problems will start. Having control of immigration was one of the key reasons that people voted to leave. If the EU won't negotiate on that point and demand freedom of movement for access to the single market and it seems that the UK can't budge on it then where do we go from there?

EDIT - that question is more aimed at those that voted to leave rather than you, SiLH.