Brexit Two Months On

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I agree - I've permanent residence here so I've no problems but I know lads who haven't registered who could be in bother.

hmmm. Not sure I have too much sympathy for those who haven't registered for temporary residence. Though there may be very good reasons why they haven't - you and I know that for as long as they are not registered they will be under suspicion by some as being illegal and working in the black economy.

 

[ger147]

I know this Gerry, but if Brexit means independent thought and decision making as we are promised, then as a civilised country with laws, culture and reputation based upon christian values of compassion, fairness, caring and 'loving thy neighbour' - the UK could simply state that all existing non-UK EU immigrants can stay (they might have the legal right to stay in any case). There is nothing stopping us. Besides the alternative being suggested seems to be that we might well kick out some if not most - and that would be self-destructive nonsense as well as inhumane.

There is no moral or christian basis underpinning EU or UK politics, and if you genuinely believe there is then I'm surprised you didn't also believe what Boris wrote on his bus.

This split is a negotiation, all chips are on the table and all the cards on both sides are still face down, and IMHO the UK government would be foolish to proceed on any other basis at the moment.

 

[Lambchops]

hmmm. Not sure I have too much sympathy for those who haven't registered for temporary residence. Though there may be very good reasons why they haven't - you and I know that for as long as they are not registered they will be under suspicion by some as being illegal and working in the black economy.

just sheer laziness for the lads I know

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is no moral or christian basis underpinning EU or UK politics, and if you genuinely believe there is then I'm surprised you didn't also believe what Boris wrote on his bus.

This split is a negotiation, all chips are on the table and all the cards on both sides are still face down, and IMHO the UK government would be foolish to proceed on any other basis at the moment.

I get what you say about UK and EU politics...but there is underpinning UK culture and law. I have to say that IMO people should never be used as bargaining chips. There should be no quid pro quo on this - and there need not be any.

The right thing to do is to let immigrants stay (especially if they are legally entitled to), and control future immigration in whatever way you choose. This may not be what some might want to happen - but it is the right thing. And in my experience when I have a difficult decision to make, the best outcome in the long run will result from me doing the right thing and not what I want to do or what might benefit me most in the short term.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

just sheer laziness for the lads I know

they need to get on with it then...

 

[ger147]

I get what you say about UK and EU politics...but there is underpinning UK culture and law. I have to say that IMO people should never be used as bargaining chips. There should be no quid pro quo on this - and there need not be any.

The right thing to do is to let immigrants stay (especially if they are legally entitled to), and control future immigration in whatever way you choose. This may not be what some might want to happen - but it is the right thing. And in my experience when I have a difficult decision to make, the best outcome in the long run will result from me doing the right thing and not what I want to do or what might benefit me most in the short term.

All I can do is agree to disagree as IMO there absolutely IS a quid pro quo on this issue and the government would be mad to start making concessions before the negotiations about the terms of our divorce from the EU have started in earnest.

The EU is a political organisation so has nothing to do with our culture etc. and IMO the UK government's responsibility is to make the best deal they can for the UK with the cards they've been dealt.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

All I can do is agree to disagree as IMO there absolutely IS a quid pro quo on this issue and the government would be mad to start making concessions before the negotiations about the terms of our divorce from the EU have started in earnest.

The EU is a political organisation so has nothing to do with our culture etc. and IMO the UK government's responsibility is to make the best deal they can for the UK with the cards they've been dealt.

But we can make our own decisions. For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves. In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who has done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples). The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them. The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.

 

[ger147]

But we can make our own decisions. For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves. In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who has done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples). The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them. The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.

As I said above, all I can do is agree to disagree as the UK government making such an announcement NOW before negotiations have begun would IMO be madness.

Your have your opinion and I have mines. You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And since May tells us Breakfast means Breakfast....and that we are going to have a Full English - I hear that LibDems and Labour and others would like to be consulted - and if decision is for leaving the single market then we need to have a debate and vote in parliament - that being such a critical and major step.

So that consultation will be on whether the Full English we are all going to have to eat for the rest of our lives will contain black pudding, beans, fried bread etc. Of course NicolaS would like Lorn sausage and Stornoway black pudding included - though I doubt many Breakfasters outside of Scotland would fancy that too much.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As I said above, all I can do is agree to disagree as the UK government making such an announcement NOW before negotiations have begun would IMO be madness.

Your have your opinion and I have mines. You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...

:thup:

 

[Foxholer]

...
Your have your opinion and I have mines. You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...

I wouldn't hold them too long if I were you! They might explode!

 

[Hobbit]

But we can make our own decisions. For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves. In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who has done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples). The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them. The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.

Why won't the govt protect UK nationals living abroad by asking for the quid pro quo? Yes it may be a cynical bargaining chip but I can't see why it won't be used.

As for the UK has never kicked out... the UK deports people almost every day.

And if a stop is put on any more coming in, the numbers already here would drop. So many come and leave every year. If there's no more coming but there's some leaving... not rocket science.

 

[SocketRocket]

I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's own decisions - to not be beholden to the EU. I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them. I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens. If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out. And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.

If you think immigration was not a major deciding factor for many people to vote leave then you must have been asleep during the whole process. I would suggest it was the major reason most voted to leave.

 

[vkurup]

So Lady May says that she won't let MPs vote on this Brexs*it thingi..
1) Is it a good idea if the MPs get a vote? Isn't that the point in having a parliamentary democracy that MPs decide on laws rather than have a law by phone ins and SMS.. else Simon Cowell would be PM

2) if MPs reject the referendum would that get the Brexiters up in arms and vice versa, if they voted to leave will it placate the remainers for ever?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If you think immigration was not a major deciding factor for many people to vote leave then you must have been asleep during the whole process. I would suggest it was the major reason most voted to leave.

I have recently been hearing that immigration was not the most important factor that caused folk to vote to Leave - but that it was sovereignty - taking back control from the EU and the likes of the ECJ. This when challenged that immigration was the over-riding factor, this is not me - this is Leave supporters. I most certainly think as you do - that Leave was driven by immigration fears and prejudices.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why won't the govt protect UK nationals living abroad by asking for the quid pro quo? Yes it may be a cynical bargaining chip but I can't see why it won't be used.

As for the UK has never kicked out... the UK deports people almost every day.

And if a stop is put on any more coming in, the numbers already here would drop. So many come and leave every year. If there's no more coming but there's some leaving... not rocket science.

Why not? - because UK citizens resident in the EU have been put in this position by the UK leaving the EU. If the EU choose to ask them to leave then that is their prerogative - assuming that they can be asked to leave. The UK has caused this situation - it is abhorrent and appalling that we use the lives of innocent residents of the UK - here quite legally - to help us sort out the mess that we have created.

The UK has never - ever - done a mass deportation. Even the threat of it stinks and makes me ashamed.

BTW - I used to be a rocket scientist - I know rocket science - it isn't that difficult....

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Possibly as big a threat from the EU in their treatment of UK citizens.

After all it was only last week that politicians from both France & Germany were suggesting the UK "must pay the price" and possibly even be punished for leaving in order to discourage others within the EU following the same course.

Now I am a Remainer but it does seem strange that the leaders are themselves so lacking in confidence in the attraction of EU membership.

 

[Hobbit]

Why not? - because UK citizens resident in the EU have been put in this position by the UK leaving the EU. If the EU choose to ask them to leave then that is their prerogative - assuming that they can be asked to leave. The UK has caused this situation - it is abhorrent and appalling that we use the lives of innocent residents of the UK - here quite legally - to help us sort out the mess that we have created.

The UK has never - ever - done a mass deportation. Even the threat of it stinks and makes me ashamed.

BTW - I used to be a rocket scientist - I know rocket science - it isn't that difficult....

Where in your post I quoted did you say mass deportation? You said deportation, hence my response. If you want to move the goalposts... And who has said mass deportation?

But it it's ok for the EU to use their prerogative but not for the UK to do the same? Double standards to support your argument is really poor.

And it's your interpretation to call it a mess. To 52% it isn't. To the Brexiters it's the process of positioning and negotiating.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

£ below the Euro at most UK Airport exchange shops now......bound to happen sometime.

I look forward to our our elected MP's voting against any government breakfast [Welsh version of Brexit] proposals.
What happens then?

BTW Scotland supporting 3rd Heathrow runway.
An interesting day in UK politics.

 

[kmdmr1]

£ below the Euro at most UK Airport exchange shops now......bound to happen sometime.

I look forward to our our elected MP's voting against any government breakfast [Welsh version of Brexit] proposals.
What happens then?

BTW Scotland supporting 3rd Heathrow runway.
An interesting day in UK politics.

just got my holiday money,
1.7 euros to the pound (staff rate)
Cashier said it`s 1.1 to the pound in the airports...