Brexit Two Months On

[SocketRocket]

Because using fellow human beings, their lives and their families as a bargaining chip is a callous act in the extreme. Is there not even an ounce of you that feels compassion for the situation of others without your exquisite British pedigree or do you simply not care?

Don't be a Drama queen! Why are you not condemning the EU for not giving assurances to UK Citizens living there. You know very well there will be no mass expulsion of EU citizens and it has already been made clear that most of them have a right to stay anyway.

 

[SocketRocket]

Because the likes of Liam Fox are indicating that a guarantee cannot be given - that residency of existing migrants is a bargaining chip that we cannot 'give away'.

And all this does is raise expectations in many Leavers that there is a possibility that all existing non-UK EU-nationals living in the UK could be told to leave; and wouldn't that make things oh so much better. And when it doesn't happen - as it won't - there will be huge resentments to all of those who thought it might come about - and who, for instance, find a Pole in front of them in the queue for a GP appointment. Meanwhile all non-UK EU-immigrants feel they have the sword of Damocles is hanging over them- and that is just appalling - and it is neither British - nor Christian (as we seem to think we still are and of which we live it's values)

It really is like hitting your head against a wall trying to discuss anything with you!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'

 

[SocketRocket]

Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'

It was a submarine crew , You stupid Boy!

 

[ColchesterFC]

Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'

Where do you keep getting this stuff from? The latest reports are that firms won't have to "list or name foreign workers they employ" but could be asked "simply to report their numbers". But I guess that the truth would get in the way of your anti Tory rhetoric.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It really is like hitting your head against a wall trying to discuss anything with you!

Well I might say exactly the same thing about yourself - who seems to see no ill whatsoever in the attitude of some (many?) Leavers towards the existing immigrant community - or are you saying that the immigration policy Brexiteers voted for covered those existing immigrants - when we all thought it was about limiting future immigration. And you still haven't replied to my question on whether you think it reasonable that people should be used as bargaining chips in exit negotiations (let's consider the 800,000 who would reportedly be given an amnesty and allowed to stay)

 

[SocketRocket]

Well I might say exactly the same thing about yourself - who seems to see no ill whatsoever in the attitude of some (many?) Leavers towards the existing immigrant community - or are you saying that the immigration policy Brexiteers voted for covered those existing immigrants - when we all thought it was about limiting future immigration. And you still haven't replied to my question on whether you think it reasonable that people should be used as bargaining chips in exit negotiations (let's consider the 800,000 who would reportedly be given an amnesty and allowed to stay)

I said it was like hitting your head against a wall. I have explained repeatedly that the EU should make a reciprocal arrangement for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.

 

[vkurup]

Its funny how folks who support 'hard' Brexit (whatever that means) balk at how Trump would make US more insular and dangerous to the world. So while it is ok for us, we dont want the US to do it... Anyways another debate.

A newspaper clipping from India.


Been on a couple of calls since that lovely speech with two University Master hopefuls - one looking at LSE and another going to Manchester - who are now reconsidering UK in favour of the US. I am not surprised, but I thought the UK wanted to attract this kind of talent rather than turning them away.

Before someone fires his rocket, let me say that i am not against the Govt knowing the 'inventory' of non-UK passport holders working in business. Most HR teams in decent sized business already collect this data. Most countries already collect such this data. Where I start disagreeing with hard tone being taken where the intention is to appease the Brexit 'majority' by driving this 'hard divide' between British-native v/ non-natives. The Tories are easily forgetting that over 49% voted to stay and since the vote people may have switched sides (either way). In the risk of political capital, we run the risk of being Trumped into a world of an insular society in constant fear of our neighbours and ready to whip out nationalistic jingoism that sets one group of citizens against another. It also seems to becoming a world that now rewards the fastest/loudest talker that drowns out a reasoned and fact based discussion - You are either in my camp or you dont love this country.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I said it was like hitting your head against a wall. I have explained repeatedly that the EU should make a reciprocal arrangement for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.

I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's own decisions - to not be beholden to the EU. I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them. I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens. If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out. And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Its funny how folks who support 'hard' Brexit (whatever that means) balk at how Trump would make US more insular and dangerous to the world. So while it is ok for us, we dont want the US to do it... Anyways another debate.

A newspaper clipping from India.
View attachment 21001

Been on a couple of calls since that lovely speech with two University Master hopefuls - one looking at LSE and another going to Manchester - who are now reconsidering UK in favour of the US. I am not surprised, but I thought the UK wanted to attract this kind of talent rather than turning them away.

Before someone fires his rocket, let me say that i am not against the Govt knowing the 'inventory' of non-UK passport holders working in business. Most HR teams in decent sized business already collect this data. Most countries already collect such this data. Where I start disagreeing with hard tone being taken where the intention is to appease the Brexit 'majority' by driving this 'hard divide' between British-native v/ non-natives. The Tories are easily forgetting that over 49% voted to stay and since the vote people may have switched sides (either way). In the risk of political capital, we run the risk of being Trumped into a world of an insular society in constant fear of our neighbours and ready to whip out nationalistic jingoism that sets one group of citizens against another. It also seems to becoming a world that now rewards the fastest/loudest talker that drowns out a reasoned and fact based discussion - You are either in my camp or you dont love this country.

Do the government not already know the nationality of all residents of the UK through their NI number - and through that they will also know where they work.

 

[vkurup]

Do the government not already know the nationality of all residents of the UK through their NI number - and through that they will also know where they work.

In theory they should.. If I come to this country for work to work and get an NI number. After a few years, if I choose to get naturalised and then a citizen, I dont have to update my NI. If my partner has not been working and does not have an NI and then gains citizenship, the NI is not in picture. So in reality the NI is not a fool proof way of knowing it.

I know what we need.. a giant new computer system which will connect all these bits about ALL people on this island - we need a new ID card system!!!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm beginning to understand a bit more about Breakfast means Breakfast.

Clearly our PM has looked at the breakfast menu and decided to eschew the delights of all continental breakfasts, and ones containing any kippers (as they are very fishy and stink).

Instead she seems to be going for the Full English Breakfast. As yet however she doesn't quite know what's in the full English. She is very reluctant to have any Scottish blackpudding - as she doesn't like the taste of that and it's made up of stuff that she'd rather not subject her digestive system to. And as her hubby will have what she has he's a bit reluctant as her doesn't know what he's going to have to eat - and at the moment she's not telling.

But Full English it seems to be - just hope it sits OK as these full English can be a bit heavy and problematic later in the day and can make you feel rather unwell. Maybe a healthier continental option would have been a better choice.

Breakfast means Breakfast. Let's hope a full English doesn't lead to indigestion and a Dogs Dinner...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In theory they should.. If I come to this country for work to work and get an NI number. After a few years, if I choose to get naturalised and then a citizen, I dont have to update my NI. If my partner has not been working and does not have an NI and then gains citizenship, the NI is not in picture. So in reality the NI is not a fool proof way of knowing it.

I know what we need.. a giant new computer system which will connect all these bits about ALL people on this island - we need a new ID card system!!!

Wouldn't surprise me, as it occurs that May could propose just about anything as a policy initiative and advance it as necessary to support delivery of what the people voted for.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Wouldn't surprise me, as it occurs that May could propose just about anything as a policy initiative and advance it as necessary to support delivery of what the people voted for.

So just like all those wonderful EU states, except Denmark.

 

[Lambchops]

I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's own decisions - to not be beholden to the EU. I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them. I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens. If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out. And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.

If the relevant person in either the Uk or EU Country has the correct legal paperwork in place then they won't be going anywhere. You are supposed to register for temporary residence within 3 months of arriving in the country, permanent residence can be applied for after a country specific timescale

 

[ger147]

I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's own decisions - to not be beholden to the EU. I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them. I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens. If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out. And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.

Divorces don't work that way, no matter which party initiated the split.

Both the EU and the UK have a right as well as a duty to negotiate the terms of their divorce and the status of each other's citizens is one of those issues that needs to be resolved. I'm sure those negotiations will take place in due course and I'm also sure there will be no EU or UK version of Mein Kampf required no matter how much some of the press try to stir up such nonsense.

 

[Foxholer]

... I have explained repeatedly that the EU should make a reciprocal arrangement for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.

What they should do could well be quite different from what they will do, even simply state they might do, as part of the Brexit negotiation process! And after Brexit is complete they could change the rules without reference to the UK!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If the relevant person in either the Uk or EU Country has the correct legal paperwork in place then they won't be going anywhere. You are supposed to register for temporary residence within 3 months of arriving in the country, permanent residence can be applied for after a country specific timescale

My understanding (from the Brexit supporting Daily Telegraph) is that by the time we actually exit the EU 80% of immigrants will have legal right to stay and cannot be thrown out. So the suggestion by some that they might - depending upon what the rest of the EU does with it's UK citizen resident - I cannot see as being anything other than a tactic pandering to those who voted leave on the grounds of existing immigrant levels - never mind cutting future levels. Because the number of non-UK EU nationals living in the UK won't be going down - and the current level causes many a big problem

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Divorces don't work that way, no matter which party initiated the split.

Both the EU and the UK have a right as well as a duty to negotiate the terms of their divorce and the status of each other's citizens is one of those issues that needs to be resolved. I'm sure those negotiations will take place in due course and I'm also sure there will be no EU or UK version of Mein Kampf required no matter how much some of the press try to stir up such nonsense.

I know this Gerry, but if Brexit means independent thought and decision making as we are promised, then as a civilised country with laws, culture and reputation based upon christian values of compassion, fairness, caring and 'loving thy neighbour' - the UK could simply state that all existing non-UK EU immigrants can stay (they might have the legal right to stay in any case). There is nothing stopping us. Besides the alternative being suggested seems to be that we might well kick out some if not most - and that would be self-destructive nonsense as well as inhumane.

 

[Lambchops]

My understanding (from the Brexit supporting Daily Telegraph) is that by the time we actually exit the EU 80% of immigrants will have legal right to stay and cannot be thrown out. So the suggestion by some that they might - depending upon what the rest of the EU does with it's UK citizen resident - I cannot see as being anything other than a tactic pandering to those who voted leave on the grounds of existing immigrant levels - never mind cutting future levels. Because the number of non-UK EU nationals living in the UK won't be going down - and the current level causes many a big problem

I agree - I've permanent residence here so I've no problems but I know lads who haven't registered who could be in bother.