In case you hadn't noticed.... "Hobbit"
Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
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In case you hadn't noticed.... "Hobbit"
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
LOL - doh!
I might pretend that my post was not aimed at you but at others who might not get the reference. But that would be disingenuous of me
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
If what we hear from Ireland on the UK's proposal for a replacement to the Backstop - what happened to the promise and assurance of frictionless trade between Ireland/EU and the UK?
We've been told for 4 years that there is a straightforward answer to managing the border issues that would enable frictionless trade without any formal physical border controls - but trusted trader etc. Well if what is proposed is true - these controls might not be actually sitting on the border...however...
Today we discover the truth - that the frictionless trade between the UK and the EU that the Leave Campaign assured us would be easily achievable without formal physical border controls may not be achievable. Let's see what we actually propose.
Strikes me that, if true, this cannot be a serious proposal by the UK - but simply one that enables Johnson to claim that they have proposed a workable solution that has been rejected by the EU - as it surely will be - and he and his Leave buddies can blame the EU for No Deal. And unfortunately I suspect that so many who support the Leave position will simply believe that the solution proposed (if true) is workable and consistent with what was promised - and they will be led to blame the EU.
We've been told for 4 years that there is a straightforward answer to managing the border issues that would enable frictionless trade without any formal physical border controls - but trusted trader etc. Well if what is proposed is true - these controls might not be actually sitting on the border...however...
Today we discover the truth - that the frictionless trade between the UK and the EU that the Leave Campaign assured us would be easily achievable without formal physical border controls may not be achievable. Let's see what we actually propose.
Strikes me that, if true, this cannot be a serious proposal by the UK - but simply one that enables Johnson to claim that they have proposed a workable solution that has been rejected by the EU - as it surely will be - and he and his Leave buddies can blame the EU for No Deal. And unfortunately I suspect that so many who support the Leave position will simply believe that the solution proposed (if true) is workable and consistent with what was promised - and they will be led to blame the EU.
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Hugh, this is becoming so tedious it beggar's belief. I agree that to have a solution on the border on the 31st Oct is unachievable but how many times have links been posted up, in response to raising this numerous times in the past, of solution currently being used on EU borders?
The reasons for those solutions not being placed on the NI border is obvious. There's been no agreement reached about the border BUT that doesn't mean the solutions aren't available. Why would either side put those solutions in place if the other side hasn't agreed to them.
Do yourself a favour, and everyone else, acknowledge that the solutions already exist and are in use elsewhere. Maybe ask the question why the EU won't accept those solutions?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Sorry Bri - but I just don't get that.
With No Deal any solution HAS to be achievable on 31st October. And as a Backstop following a transition period it is unacceptable as it does not deliver frictionless trade and relies upon physical border controls.
If the solutions you insist are available then why is it that we hear that the government is proposing physical border control stations as part of their replacement for the Backstop - albeit they would be 10miles from the border on both sides. Why are they not proposing the solutions that you insist are readily available - there would be two years to sort out how to make them work if they were workable? Plus we said that the UK would never put in place any form of physical border control - and if true that seems to be precisely what is being proposed.
The Swiss border...(as another poster asked why not the Swiss solution)
https://infacts.org/bbc-lets-brexiters-swiss-border-untruths-go-unchecked/
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Two things to cross border traffic. People & trade.
The Common Travel Area Agreement covers that. Both the UK and Ireland have said that agreement is still on the statute books and will continue to be honoured.
Trade; electronic, as I did for years, and as others on here say they do. Incoming you can have the sensor solution that on the Estonia and Norwegian border. Maybe the UK have offered a different solution, as you quoted, because the EU have said no to the solutions already in place elsewhere.
Honestly, you can bring up as many different articles as you like. As far as I'm concerned there are proven solutions on EU borders elsewhere. I lay the blame solely at the EU's door for this one and I'm 99% certain they are just being obtuse in the hope it forces the UK to be tied in.
^^^^^^^ what he just said, with knobs on.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
glad you changed your socks.
I am currently going through my 'Ready for No Deal Brexit' freight checklist, freight companies and the govt are ramping this up. First off, it will be far more complicated to ship goods to France post no deal Brexit than it is to ship to Bolivia, Malawi, USA, India etc. The EU are making this unecessarily complicated but hey, it will create lots of lovely admin jobs. Second, the point of most of what I will be doing is to provide information to freight companies regarding my shipments so that they can give them to the customs in the EU in advance, allowing the vehicles to drive straight through. The odd one will be randomly checked but the big multi-national companies will likely be allowed to drive straight through based on trust in the advance paperwork being given. If it is being accepted there then why not on the Irish border? Yes the odd random check, as per tunnel checks if anyone has been through one, but the idea that every person or vehicle needs to be checked is like something out of the history books, well, 70's / 80's anyway. Freight has moved on.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Funny how the solution offered by the UK Government is already in operation to a certain extent by the Irish Border Authorities and Irish Garda. They have even made a TV series based on it FFS.
IanM
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Countless crossings are made freely elsewhere in the EU......... the only thing about Ireland/Ulster is trying to prevent one of the VERY FEW countries that pays in to the pot from leaving. Simple as that.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
OK - simple question then
Does the solution that we may be proposing deliver frictionless trade and no physical border controls. Because for four years that is what we have been told we can have between the UK and Ireland/EU.
The EU are the ones insistent on a physical border control. We can propose all we like, if they refuse to consider it in order to 'protect the single market' then that is a problem at their door. We CAN have it, they are choosing not to allow it.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Apparently our proposal includes physical border control...? We said the UK would never put in place any physical border controls. So why the heck are we proposing them - unless, and as, we know that the proposal will be rejected out of hand by the EU. So it is not a serious proposal?
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IanM
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Fade and Die
Medal Winner
Just post a link to today’s James o Brien show.... it will save you the effort of typing.ðŸ‘
woody69
Journeyman Pro
Is this a typo? Since when does Estonia border with Norway?
drdel
Tour Rookie
I think its to be read as two examples.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
I'm stating that the Irish already carrys out a system that cannot be described as frictionless. The UK Gov has stated that it would be frictionless on the UK side. I know it's not in vogue within the EU but it's not up to the UK to tell Ireland on how it controls access across their side of the border.
Hopefully not wasting my typing fingers here. As I read it currently the proposal is:
Goods into and out of the EU generally will be split into exempt and non exempt goods. Non exempt are likely to be alcohol, cigarettes, oil, as examples. There will be others of course. The exempt items will declare before setting off from the factory, let's say in Cork, and will drive straight through to, say, Belfast without being stopped. There may be some form of tracker on the vehicle or device that triggers when it crosses the border, similar to pre-pay discs that you can use to go through the Tyne Tunnel, Mersey Tunnel, and I would guess Dartford Crossing. The bulk of items crossing back and forth will be classed as exempt and there will be no checks other than random ones in either the factory of origin or the destination. No physical border checks.
For exempt items it becomes more sensitive so the proposal is for there to be no actual checks on the border, too problematic in Ireland sad to say. They are talking about specific clearance centres away from the actual border. No passport checks, no barriers to be lifted and put down, but centres that drivers will go to and their vehicles checked there. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you drive through the Tyne Tunnel lorries are pulled over randomly and are checked to make sure the contents and paperwork match and are safe to go through. This will be a similar set up. No physical border but buildings, warehouses that drivers will go to well inside N. Ireland for checks.
If I am reading it incorrectly I am sure someone will correct me. It seems a pretty reasonable proposal. It just needs to be agreed in principle for the whole deal to go through. They then have the transition period in which to build the centres, put this in place.
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