Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Blue in Munich]

I actually think that it is really, really important if we are going to have any chance of near term reconciliation in this country that we leave with a Deal - and I think that Johnson just has too much invested in a 31/10 departure - and that puts the chance of any deal being reached severely at risk.

I say this as someone who has come to think that reconciliation matters more to me than whether we leave or don't leave.

And so if a deal was agreed and there was to be another referendum; if the political context and understanding in the country had not changed from what it is now; and if Remain was on the ballot paper - I think I might actually vote for leaving with the deal agreed.

Because whereas I might well think that the Others are Wrong - I have to accept that there will be some Right in their thinking. And whereas I might well think We are Right - I have to accept that there will be some Wrong in Our thinking. And if I come to that acceptance - and an acceptance, no matter how insane I think leaving is, that many, many will not accept remaining in the EU - then I must vote to leave - but I will do much more easily on the basis of a deal having been reached.

And I don't think Johnson can get a deal. I hope he can.

But since he said that the UK would not negotiate until the EU drop their insistence on a backstop - and they haven't - they want an alternative and they'll discuss it and negotiate around it - I can't see what Johnson has been negotiating - he said he wasn't going to. His officials may have been presenting ideas - but no negotiating going on.

You're very much like Brexit, aren't you; keep telling us you're leaving but somehow you're still in...

 

[Blue in Munich]

Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know they’ve played hardball, too me they’ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesn’t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? Currently the last 2 PM’s have legged it when it got too tough.

People with no interest in leaving have been fanning about for 2 years avoiding the issue, someone with an interest in Leaving might have stood a chance of doing something in 6 weeks. Or would have done if Labour hadn't tied his hands behind his back & done his legs just to make sure.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

DUP are yesterday's news, just another minor party now, they have no power since Johnson sacked 21 of his own, changing the Commons arithmetic. They might be needed again for another coalition after next GE of course, wonder if they'll get another £1 billion for doing that, if required?

I’m looking at it more from Loyalist Terrorists starting more trouble rather than the political angle.

 

[ColchesterFC]

It does not matter - the hardliners will blame the UK for leaving.

I'm assuming that you are including yourself as one of the "hardliners" as in your posts everything is the fault of the UK and the EU is blameless.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Let's get this in perspective, there has been no peace in NI. Since the Good Friday agreement there has been no week where a terrorist incident hasn't occurred. To even think this is as a result of Brexit is absurd and playing into the IRA's hands. There have been soft boarder checks on both sides of the boarder by customs and police forces for years.

Yes, but do we really want to risk escalating it to previous levels?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

People with no interest in leaving have been fanning about for 2 years avoiding the issue, someone with an interest in Leaving might have stood a chance of doing something in 6 weeks. Or would have done if Labour hadn't tied his hands behind his back & done his legs just to make sure.

Nope mate, not just Labour, but all the opposition and some tories. In fact didn’t Labour give TM proposals that would of got her deal through?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Then you come on and insult everyone

🤦‍♂️ Seriously ? You feel insulted by what I posted ?

 

[Old Skier]

Yes, but do we really want to risk escalating it to previous levels?

To late

 

[Kellfire]

To late

What a ridiculous thing to say. The difference in Northern Ireland today and before the Good Friday Agreement are monumental.

 

[chrisd]

No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st

Hopefully mate, hopefully. 🤞

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No proof, no real reason, but I reckon Boris may just pull off an acceptable deal by the 31st

I hope so - if he finds a deal that’s acceptable to all then it would be an outstanding result , I suspect one will contain a few clauses that will have hard brexiters foaming and the vice versa will have the extreme Pro Remain but imo it’s the people in the middle that need/want a good deal/plan

 

[Kellfire]

I hope so - if he finds a deal that’s acceptable to all then it would be an outstanding result , I suspect one will contain a few clauses that will have hard brexiters foaming and the vice versa will have the extreme Pro Remain but imo it’s the people in the middle that need/want a good deal/plan

More naïveté on your part today, Phil - the vast number of remainers will be unhappy with ANY deal.

 

[Fade and Die]

Then you come on and insult everyone

When LP starts calling people Hypocrites I actually laugh out loud. (Wife gives me a look and rolls her eyes 😁)

 

[Fade and Die]

How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.

I always though Mavis Mays plan was to throw the Irish under the bus with the border but her General Election cock up prevented it.

 

[Fade and Die]

And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal. I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.

Is there no limit to your malice? You sound like you are salivating at the prospect of cross border troubles to prove that leaving is wrong. That’s shameful.

 

[Old Skier]

What a ridiculous thing to say. The difference in Northern Ireland today and before the Good Friday Agreement are monumental.

In terms of quality and quantity I couldn't agree more

 

[Kellfire]

In terms of quality and quantity I couldn't agree more

What the hell are you even saying here?

 

[Deleted member 1418]

I didn't think there would be a thread worse than the football one.......I was way wrong!!

 

[User62651]

I didn't think there would be a thread worse than the football one.......I was way wrong!!

True, it's s war of attrition on here sometimes, 5 weeks off now though.
Mods don't intervene too much so maybe It's not that bad?
Said it before but compared to the political commentary on twitter this thread is pretty cordial. That place is savage.

When you decide you divide.............. nothing truer.