Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

He also backed TM’s deal, no trust in him whatsoever, his priority is him and his mates and like you say, he’s determined to take us out without a deal, something he stated he didn’t want during the referendum and he has not explained how it would be better for the Country, all we keep hearing is how he doesn’t want it, it’s a bargaining chip, what’s his fallback if they call his bluff? Blame them?

I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.

 

[woody69]

I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.

I'm not sure he's a "true leaver" considering his unpublished article on why we should remain.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-vs-boris-johnson-brexit-arguments-for-and-against-10619817

Like most in this whole sorry affair he saw more personal opportunity backing leave

 

[oxymoron]

I guess I’m just skim reading these days and things like “remoaners” and losers etc keep appearing but you are prob right - it will be both sides

It is amusing at times the hypocrisy- one side complains about insults but then tries to defend the insults from their own side and vice versa

The whole thing now is a childish pantomime both on the thread and even in the HoC - as each day goes by it just gets worse.

I don’t want to even think what it is going to be like when the next extension happens

You hit the nail square on the head i think , next extension ? God almighty whats the record for a thread length ? We could be in for the long haul with this topic.

 

[rudebhoy]

How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.

 

[robinthehood]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news...rom-arguing-with-brexit-fkwits-20160713110699

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.

I have no issue with parts of what you say and I have said that if he’d be realistic about a proper time frame to try and negotiate a better deal then I’d have more faith (not all his fault for the months wasted after TM resigned), unfortunately I believe the bull in the china shop and who blinks first approach has backfired.
The fact his approach has united the opposition and weakened his own party says it all for me.

 

[SocketRocket]

I guess I’m just skim reading these days and things like “remoaners” and losers etc keep appearing but you are prob right - it will be both sides

It is amusing at times the hypocrisy- one side complains about insults but then tries to defend the insults from their own side and vice versa

The whole thing now is a childish pantomime both on the thread and even in the HoC - as each day goes by it just gets worse.

I don’t want to even think what it is going to be like when the next extension happens

Then you come on and insult everyone

 

[SocketRocket]

How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.

And how do you know there are no negotiations going on?

 

[Hobbit]

I have no issue with parts of what you say and I have said that if he’d be realistic about a proper time frame to try and negotiate a better deal then I’d have more faith (not all his fault for the months wasted after TM resigned), unfortunately I believe the bull in the china shop and who blinks first approach has backfired.
The fact his approach has united the opposition and weakened his own party says it all for me.

You could flip that and say its a shame that the majority of Parliament hasn't got the balls for the fight for a good deal. As much as I detest Boris, I actually think he was doing it the right way, only to be stymied by Labour, who will do anything to beat the Tories, joining the LibDems, who along with the SNP have been the only 2 parties that have been honest all the way through.

The EU have played hard ball all the way through and, up to Boris fighting fire with fire, were calling all the shots.

 

[SocketRocket]

So speaking to people who live in the region and grew up in that area through the troubles is just exaggerated nonsense? Is it exaggerated nonsense because it doesn't align with your opinion, or because you know something many people don't?

If there is no hard border, i.e. infrastructure from cameras to buildings where trucks can be stopped for purposes of checking paperwork and cargo are you suggesting there will be no impact on the peace process? Perhaps you can you suggest a viable alternative for the checks that will be required for goods moving between the EU and the UK assuming the "undemocratic" back-stop is dropped?

Are you saying if there are any kind of checks then it will insight violence. Really !

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So speaking to people who live in the region and grew up in that area through the troubles is just exaggerated nonsense? Is it exaggerated nonsense because it doesn't align with your opinion, or because you know something many people don't?

If there is no hard border, i.e. infrastructure from cameras to buildings where trucks can be stopped for purposes of checking paperwork and cargo are you suggesting there will be no impact on the peace process? Perhaps you can you suggest a viable alternative for the checks that will be required for goods moving between the EU and the UK assuming the "undemocratic" back-stop is dropped?

And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal. I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

How exactly is BJ going to get a deal when there is no negotiations going on?

For what it's worth, I think he could get a deal that would be acceptable to the HOC - move the hard border to the Irish Sea. The DUP will hate it, but he is no longer dependent on them as even with their bought votes, he can't get a majority. But I suspect the majority of MPs would go for the above - might be a vote loser in NI, but do the mainstream parties really care about that? The nationalist parties in NI will also be happy with that arrangement as it's one step closer to a united Ireland.

If one good thing has come from sacking the 21, it's that the DUP have lost their grip on the balance of power.

Moving the border to the Irish Sea would seem to be a sensible solution but the peace process is so fragile that any changes to the current situation is bound to have a negative impact somewhere

 

[ColchesterFC]

And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal. I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

What if we leave with No Deal due to the actions of the EU? What if the PM asks for an extension and the EU says "no, we aren't prepared to extend the deadline, you're out on 31st Oct"?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You could flip that and say its a shame that the majority of Parliament hasn't got the balls for the fight for a good deal. As much as I detest Boris, I actually think he was doing it the right way, only to be stymied by Labour, who will do anything to beat the Tories, joining the LibDems, who along with the SNP have been the only 2 parties that have been honest all the way through.

The EU have played hard ball all the way through and, up to Boris fighting fire with fire, were calling all the shots.

Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know they’ve played hardball, too me they’ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesn’t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? Currently the last 2 PM’s have legged it when it got too tough.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Moving the border to the Irish Sea would seem to be a sensible solution but the peace process is so fragile that any changes to the current situation is bound to have a negative impact somewhere

The DUP wouldn’t stand for that mate.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

Come on Bri, negotiations have been going on for over 2 years and Boris is going to sort it in 6 weeks? How do we know they’ve played hardball, too me they’ve simply got their act together and playing a game of who blinks first, especially not knowing how bad or good a No Deal would be.

If he doesn’t get his own way do you expect him to cut and run or try and face it? Currently the last 2 PM’s have legged it when it got too tough.

100% spot on.

Millionaire ministers only care about their millionaire friends, they dont give a flying feck about Tom the local village car mechanic etc.

 

[User62651]

The DUP wouldn’t stand for that mate.

DUP are yesterday's news, just another minor party now, they have no power since Johnson sacked 21 of his own, changing the Commons arithmetic. They might be needed again for another coalition after next GE of course, wonder if they'll get another £1 billion for doing that, if required?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can understand the beat Boris stick. He is a liar of the first water. But come on. Lets look past his behaviour and ask the question just who do we believe? Boris? No. Corbyn? No. McDonnell? Hell no with knobs on. Swinson? No. Farage? No. Blair, Major & Brown? No.

Is Boris the right person to deliver on Brexit? Yes he probably is. Is he the right person to get a deal? That's a little harder. I like the fact he's sailing close to the wind in forcing the issue but I'm not convinced he genuinely wants a deal, i.e. I don't trust him. But I see him as someone who since the initial referendum when he campaigned as a Leaver he's remained one of the true Leavers. He's hardly flip-flopped like many.

There isn't a deal out there that will be better for European trade than the UK already has, and I believe there's too many people in Parliament and outside it that won't accept that. And that brings us back to what does the rest of the world have to offer in terms of trade, and is it enough to balance the sovereignty etc that people also wanted.

Whatever, I feel bashing Boris for many things is fair but I'd also ask the question, just what do you suggest is the best way to enable Brexit.

I actually think that it is really, really important if we are going to have any chance of near term reconciliation in this country that we leave with a Deal - and I think that Johnson just has too much invested in a 31/10 departure - and that puts the chance of any deal being reached severely at risk.

I say this as someone who has come to think that reconciliation matters more to me than whether we leave or don't leave.

And so if a deal was agreed and there was to be another referendum; if the political context and understanding in the country had not changed from what it is now; and if Remain was on the ballot paper - I think I might actually vote for leaving with the deal agreed.

Because whereas I might well think that the Others are Wrong - I have to accept that there will be some Right in their thinking. And whereas I might well think We are Right - I have to accept that there will be some Wrong in Our thinking. And if I come to that acceptance - and an acceptance, no matter how insane I think leaving is, that many, many will not accept remaining in the EU - then I must vote to leave - but I will do much more easily on the basis of a deal having been reached.

And I don't think Johnson can get a deal. I hope he can.

But since he said that the UK would not negotiate until the EU drop their insistence on a backstop - and they haven't - they want an alternative and they'll discuss it and negotiate around it - I can't see what Johnson has been negotiating - he said he wasn't going to. His officials may have been presenting ideas - but no negotiating going on.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What if we leave with No Deal due to the actions of the EU? What if the PM asks for an extension and the EU says "no, we aren't prepared to extend the deadline, you're out on 31st Oct"?

It does not matter - the hardliners will blame the UK for leaving.

 

[Old Skier]

And even if somehow border checks and controls are completely invisible - I am not sure that hardline republicans in the north will take kindly to their 'kith and kin' south of the border suffering economic disaster and personal pain through the actions of the UK if we leave with No Deal. I fear that they won;t need that much of an excuse...

The video I posted was by Peter Oborne - the Daily Mail's chief political commentator and a staunch advocate of Brexit - until he - too late as he says - started to understand the NI/EU border complexity and sensitivities.

Let's get this in perspective, there has been no peace in NI. Since the Good Friday agreement there has been no week where a terrorist incident hasn't occurred. To even think this is as a result of Brexit is absurd and playing into the IRA's hands. There have been soft boarder checks on both sides of the boarder by customs and police forces for years.